Rethinking attitudes towards fire suppression

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by hodgmo

Bottom line: expect HFC-227ea to become more expensive and probably more difficult to find.

As I wrote upthread, it's a dance. Of olden time we had Halon 1211 and Halon 1301. They're tough on the ozone layer, really tough, and although there are still some recovered stocks left being cleaned up and made into new extinguishers it's a regulatory mess.


FM-200/HFC-227ea has global warming impact but is easier on the ozone layer.


CO2 isn't effective enough and involves weight and space tradeoffs that aren't workable on a boat, at least for automated systems that flood an area.


Maybe they'll come up with something better. I'm not aware of anything imminent.

[hodgmo]

Originally Posted by Phyrcooler

...So… my thoughts for sailors. First - yes, we are surrounded by water. Water is a great extinguishing agent. In the right situation! However, your advice to use water instead of a dry chem extinguisher, or even a simple smothering effect with a lid or fire blanket on a stove or flammable liquid fire is frankly wrong. Water hits burning flammable liquids and immediately can expand to steam. Often explosively. Water when it turns to steam expands 1700 times its volume. This often results in the spreading of the burning fat or petroleum product outside of its original container or area - spreading the fire. Knowing how and trying to teach the nuances of water use in a flammable liquid situation creates a scenario that most civilians will get wrong. I strongly recommend against it. Especially when dry chemical extinguishers are fast and highly effective. (And no, I do not have ANY financial interests in same)

Dry Chem Fire extinguishers are fast and effective and should be your immediate go to if you can’t immediately smother a fire. Worrying about cleanup is pretty silly in the face of fire and its damage potential. Running around setting up, and activating a pump takes precious time. Properly placed multipurpose extinguishers can be put into service in seconds. A fire can or may have already taken out your electrical circuit to your pump!...

This is spot on, thank you!

Fire blankets are so inexpensive, easy to find (Amazon), and effective as a 1st defense against small fires, that every boat should have one, and know how to use it.

A fire port into the engine box is another inexpensive, simple and highly effective feature every boat (with an engine compartment) should have, and know how to use it.

Finally, when clean agents like HFC-227ea or FK-5-1-12 (trade name Novec 1230) are considered, so should be the toxic byproducts that result when any flourinated fire suppression agent is used to put out a fire. Unlike the harmless nuisance irritation experienced when breathing dry chemical dust, the combustion byproducts from flourinated clean agents are toxic and, in an enclosed or poorly ventilated space, can be deadly.

[C420sailor]

Agree with the above.

I use the water can as an example of the strength of extinguishers—not necessarily as a recommendation. There is a very common misconception that an extinguisher is suitable for only small nuisance fires like the aforementioned ‘wastepaper basket’. That is the misconception I’m attempting to bust. I anchor down on the can because it’s nothing special (just water) and I have a lot of experience fighting fire with it. Dry chem, especially 10lb or larger, has some very solid game.

In the fire academy, we got to use a variety of extinguishers on burning pans of diesel. ABC, CO2, water, AFFF. Very eye opening.

As for fog nozzles on a water can, I’ve never seen one either—but a technique many of us use is to use the thumb over the end to create a broken stream. Much like half cocking a smoothbore nozzle.

[Russian007]

I am not in agreement on some of the comments regarding the efficacy of dry chem extinguishers. It was an SOP for us to have a manned dry chem at all auto fires. They werent for the car/gas, they were to protect the guy on the nozzle. We rarely used them, most of my experience with them was at drills. Seemed like the slightest headwind rendered them useless. Downwind pretty good, you can float a cloud over a spill supposedly. They also do nothing to remove heat. So many times the fire flashes out for like 2 seconds and flashes right back on. Water is miraculous stuff and it can absolutely knock down and control flammable liquid fires, the caveat being mastery over burning liquid takes some volume, pressure and a nozzle that can give you a 30 degree cone. we used 1.5' line with 75#s of pressure giving 100gpm on fuel spills.You can use smaller gear but I don't know how small. As someone in this thread said, situational dependent. There is no one size fits all. I only know what I will do. If electrical, de engergize. That often solves the issue. Then cool it with water. Most anything else, I go with water.
I have two of these mounted on the wall. Love to have long handle but I think the confined space of boat dictates hatchet. A lot of times access to the fire is hard, open her up with this and put the fire out. You can breach a hull with a pickhead ax. Might have made a difference to those poor bastards stuck below on the Concecption. Pretty painless $20 that might save your ass. Getting at the fire is often the real trick.

[Phyrcooler]

I do understand this line of reasoning and have run into it before. My fire extinguisher guy feels the same way. I believe that some of this orthodoxy is based on the idea (supported, I believe, by some research) that most people with little or no training will grab whatever fire extinguisher is at hand. If they're going to do that, best that it be an ABC one.


Using an ABC extinguisher in an enclosed area makes a mess that has to be seen to be believed. SNIP

Again - you’ve done a lot of research, and have made some valid points. I fully support your basic analysis that the 5BC minimum extinguishers are inadequate. My philosophy when teaching civilians and being involved years ago in some of our staff’s CERT training programs… is the KISS principal. Keep it simple. An appropriately sized ABC extinguisher is still compact, easily obtained everywhere, highly effective, and simple for anyone to use on ANY fire. My belief that this messaging is important and best for 95+% of our boaters.

The issue of mess, while partially valid, in my opinion, is an overstated worry. I’ve demonstrated countless times that a 1/2 second blast from 4’ away will knock out the majority of kitchen grease fires. There is no need to dump a whole extinguisher on most fires… or spray the smoke as we call it. I’ve personally used dry chems on multiple engine fires, with cleanup using compressed air and water rinse where appropriate, with zero ill effects. (Even newer “electronic” engines; their modules are definitely designed to be environmentally tight). Now, electronics, MFD’s and computers are an entirely different story! You are absolutely right there!

Reality is, while nothing you have recommended is particularly exotic, you’d be hard pressed to find boaters willing to pay the added cost of Purple K and ionized water misting extinguishers, nor find the mounting locations for same. Sadly, we’re lucky if they can maintain currency on what little they are required to have.

For me - I am a sworn believer in being prepared. But I also believe in keeping it simple. I find that a couple decent sized ABC extinguishers address both my needs on my boat. You’ve definitely provided some food for thought. I also appreciate you clearing up my experience with PW’s vs. the de-ionized misting extinguishers. I’ve only seen a couple of those in hospitals, and they definitely fall into the out of sight, out of mind issue. Always learning!

With Regards

[steve77]

Originally Posted by Jammer

immediate danger to life and health


Typically used to describe an environment that is dangerous enough to overcome an individual attempting to escape, or to cause lasting harm. Originally used to describe an atmosphere with acutely toxic levels of chemical contaminants, or insufficient oxygen to sustain life -- but has been generalized to other hazards

Thank you. That's not an acronym that I've heard before.

Steve

[capn_billl]

My boat has fire ports in the engine room, (a small hole with a breakaway diaphragm) for a fire extinguisher nozzle.

On my to do list is to add a couple Halon bottles with heat activation to the inside of engine room.

I already have ABC extinguishers in every room.

The boat came with an extinguisher in both propane locker, and battery compartment. I'm a little leery of how useful that will be since those are the two most probable locations for a fire starting, but I guess odds are it wont start both places at the same time, so I can grab the extinguisher from the other.

[Russian007]

Originally Posted by Jammer

CO2 isn't effective enough and involves weight and space tradeoffs that aren't workable on a boat, at least for automated systems that flood an area.

.

Our truck companies carried C02 extinguishers. Only think I saw them used for was keeping barking Junk Yard Dogs at bay. Some of the funniest stuff ever.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Jammer

[ crossposted with C420sailor ]

Not necessarily. It depends on the amount of water, the amount of oil involved, and whether you can maintain a safe distance. If you are using a teakettle or watering can then yes you'll make the problem worse and get burned in the process. If you have a deep fryer full of overheated flaming oil, water will make the problem worse.

But in the relatively more common situation where there is a frypan with shallow oil or grease and other foods, if you have a hose and can maintain your distance, you can put it out.

For a professional fire fighter, yes, they will take 2-3 seconds to assess the situation and react appropriately (hopefully if they are well trained).

For a random joe who is in panic mode, maybe had a few sundowners, far better to keep it simple...no water with grease fires.

I also never heard the evacuate first....I always remember hearing, try to put it out but if you aren't immediately getting it under control get out (a boat offshore would be a different matter).

[Clivevon]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Perhaps you already know this, but in case others don't...

A kitchen fire that is being fueled by oil or grease is going to be made WORSE by spraying it with water.

Not 100% correct - I have a water mist fire extinguisher rated as safe & designed for use on galley fat fires & also electrical fires. Something to do with de-ionised water, but it is still water. So I also keep a firefighting hose on board to connect to my galley tap which has a fine mist nozzle.

[C420sailor]

Deionized (distilled) water doesn’t conduct electricity.

[Clivevon]

Not sure what happens in USA but here in UK the most common boat fire extinguishers are dry powder filled for use on ABC fires. The problems with these as I understand it are multiple. (Please bear in mind I'm just a poor boat owner & consumer here - no relevant technical training beyond the ability to use a computer & to read - also to think.)
The dry powder reacts with moisture in the atmosphere (or in your body or your engine) to form CO2 (which hopefully puts out the fire) & phosphoric acid. In order of priority the phosphoric acid creates several issues:
If you breath it in while fighting the fire, your lungs will be damaged by the acid. "Like being in a snow globe" - good analogy. (So these extinguishers are clearly labelled as NOT for use in confined spaces - that has to include anywhere below decks on a boat. Why do chandleries sell these??? Why do boat owners buy them - is it because they is just unknowing?)
If your engine breathes it in (because your automatic engine bay dry powder extinguisher went off while you were motoring) your engine will need a full stripdown & rebuild to get rid of the acid.
If the powder is not thoroughly cleaned out of all the little nooks & crannies your boat will be damaged over time by the acid (like for example your rubber engine mounts?)
Oh - & it makes an awful mess...
BUT - these are the cheapest fire extinguishers you can buy & they are compliant, so,,,
On my boat I have an automatic heat sensitive halon substitute (FE200?) in the engine bay, a fire port to inject CO2 into the engine bay from a large free standing CO2 extinguisher, a large water/foam extinguisher, a water mist galley / electrical extinguisher + a fire blanket, a ready use fresh water hose with variable nozzle, & a couple of old dry powder extinguishers that look like they might still work maybe - if all else failed.
What you do on your boat is up to you.
Thank you to Jammer for showing me I'm not the only paranoid person around here...

[Cliffhanger]

Good discussion topic. Let's look at a case study.

Some years ago we had a fire on our 36ft ply/glass boat. We were under motor from lack of wind. I was in the cockpit, my wife was in the shower. When she got out she noticed smoke in the cabin. She called out to me and I could see smoke seeping out from the cabin sole. I lifted the sole access panel to a cloud of smoke and the glow of a small fire. I dropped the panel back in place and grabbed the extinguisher. (3 meters away). I lifted the panel again and now the fire was much bigger. I squeezed the trigger and nothing happened - I hadn't pulled the safety pin. It took me a second or two to sort it out and get the extinguisher going. I emptied half the extinguisher into the fairly small space between the fuel tank, a water tank and a bulkhead. The fire was out. The whole episode took less than 30 seconds. I honestly think another 30 seconds and the fire would have been unmanageable. If we had both been in the cockpit or my wife had a longer shower we probably wouldn't have noticed it until it was too late.
The cause of the fire was a faulty fuel lift pump that takes diesel from the main tank to a day tank. It had caught fire and melted one of the fittings so fuel was running down from the day tank onto the fire. (I don't think the diesel actually caught fire, I think it was just the pump and the main wiring harness just above the tank. If this was petrol, not diesel I probably wouldn't be here telling you this story. As it was, we were left with a big mess, white powder everywhere, charred underfloor, the main wiring harness melted through so almost no electrics worked and a $10,000 repair bill.
Lessons learnt? 1. Smoke alarms are absolutely essential on a boat. Seconds matter and early warning is the only chance of getting a fire under control. We were just lucky this time. 2. Quick access to under-floor areas and anywhere there is wiring or any other place a fire might start is essential. We had ring-pull type latches but I have seen screwed-down soles. 3. Don't buy cheap fuel pumps! 4. Make sure all wiring is appropriately protected by fuses or circuit breakers.

[Phyrcooler]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

Not sure what happens in USA but here in UK the most common boat fire extinguishers are dry powder filled for use on ABC fires. The problems with these as I understand it are multiple. (Please bear in mind I'm just a poor boat owner & consumer here - no relevant technical training beyond the ability to use a computer & to read - also to think.)
The dry powder reacts with moisture in the atmosphere (or in your body or your engine) to form CO2 (which hopefully puts out the fire) & phosphoric acid. In order of priority the phosphoric acid creates several issues:
If you breath it in while fighting the fire, your lungs will be damaged by the acid. "Like being in a snow globe" - good analogy. (So these extinguishers are clearly labelled as NOT for use in confined spaces - that has to include anywhere below decks on a boat. Why do chandleries sell these??? Why do boat owners buy them - is it because they is just unknowing?)
If your engine breathes it in (because your automatic engine bay dry powder extinguisher went off while you were motoring) your engine will need a full stripdown & rebuild to get rid of the acid.
If the powder is not thoroughly cleaned out of all the little nooks & crannies your boat will be damaged over time by the acid (like for example your rubber engine mounts?)
Oh - & it makes an awful mess...
BUT - these are the cheapest fire extinguishers you can buy & they are compliant, so,,,
On my boat I have an automatic heat sensitive halon substitute (FE200?) in the engine bay, a fire port to inject CO2 into the engine bay from a large free standing CO2 extinguisher, a large water/foam extinguisher, a water mist galley / electrical extinguisher + a fire blanket, a ready use fresh water hose with variable nozzle, & a couple of old dry powder extinguishers that look like they might still work maybe - if all else failed.
What you do on your boat is up to you.
Thank you to Jammer for showing me I'm not the only paranoid person around here...

Not sure what is in your extinguishers over there, but here in the US, the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for ABC extinguishers (searched Kidde brand as an example) specifically states it is NOT an inhalation hazard. I know I’ve inhaled enough over the years that I can close my eyes and taste the sour/bitter taste from memory. (Not that that is a good thing!) There is no listing for the Ph, stating it is non applicable. Without a notation, doesn’t appear that acidity is an issue. So… Definitely curious for you UK folks. Can you internet search for your equivalent to an MSDS?

[requiem]

Re: Oil and water, my impression is that the splattering is caused by liquid water falling into the oil, flashing to steam, and the resulting gas expansion splattering the surrounding area with (burning) oil. The theory behind misting systems is to ensure any water droplets are far too small to sink into the oil, while still taking advantage of water's immense heat absorption properties to cool the area.

I am curious as to how much a role de-ionized water might play; water left on its own will self-ionize but I couldn't tell you at what rate. I do have a suspicion that the "electrical-safe" properties have much more to do with the physical properties of the mist (e.g. most turning to steam) than having been de-ionized. For a clean-room facility I imagine de-ionization would be worth it.