Need for Immersion Suits

[rbk]

Originally Posted by GordMay

We carried, and used, “Mustang” Insulated Flotation Coats, and Flotation Suits. Not true Immersion Suits, but warm “foulies”, with flotation.
Like these:
➥ Classic Flotation Coat MC1505
➥ Classic Flotation Suit MS-185

If you read the specs on these mustang floater suit systems (you need both tops and bottoms) they can increase your cold water exposure from minutes to hours and are a good alternative to expensive immersion suits. While they don't replace an immersion suit they are a good compromise and make excellent weather gear">foul weather gear which you're already buying anyways. They can be a bit stiff at first but do soften quickly.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by thinwater

A few days ago a strong swimmer decided to jump into the Chesapeake Bay (40F water temp) to recover a run-away dingy. He never surfaced.

Most likely he was a victim of cold water shock, which causes you to gulp in water involuntarily. It is a major cause of drowning in the UK, where cold water is common.

I can site any number of cases where the cold water victim drown in moments, even with an inflatable PFD. You still go under before it inflates. In the winter, we (the Annapolis area) always loses a few experienced sailors to falls from docks. They just sink.

Falling head-first into cold water can, and often does, kill within moments.
...

I would guestimate that here in central NC, we have an average of one drowning every year in the late spring that is due to the cold water gasp reflex. I think one year we had three drownings. The water temperature is still cold to very cold but we can have warm or even hot air temperatures. People will go swimming in local lakes, rivers or ponds and drown. The reports generally suggest it was cold water gasp reflex.

There is a bridge over a major lake where a grandfather drowned a few years ago. He and his grandson where fishing on a boat. The grandson tried to tie up to one of the bridge columns and fell into the water. The grandfather jumped into the water to save the kid but the grandfather drowned quickly. A man fishing under the bridge pulled the grandson to shore. I doubt the boat was more than 25-50 feet from shore. Almost certainly the drowning was from cold water gasp reflex.

In the last couple of weeks, there was a story on GCaptain about a commercial fisherman who walked off a dock in Alaska and never surfaced.

Later,
Dan

[Cameron B]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Thanks Cameron. I'll have to get serious about researching the various options. Do you know if the CG ever sells off older inventory? I'd really like to invest in one of these things (two actually), but the prices I've seen are pretty steep for us budget cruisers.

I hear ya. They are pretty pricey as is most safety gear. As far as I know immersion suits that don't pass inspections are destroyed, so you won't find any that way.
The CG does sell surplus equipment to the public. If you google crown assets you should be able to find it.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Cameron B

I hear ya. They are pretty pricey as is most safety gear. As far as I know immersion suits that don't pass inspections are destroyed, so you won't find any that way.
The CG does sell surplus equipment to the public. If you google crown assets you should be able to find it.

Right ... found it (https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm). I'll keep an eye on it. Thanks.

[slug]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Of those of you that cruise cold waters (most of the West Coast, the Great Lakes, New England in summer, and down to the Outer Banks in winter), how many carry either immersion suits, 7mm wet suits, or dry suits for the entire crew? If you were a commercial vessel--which is less likely to sink--immersion suits are required in cold water areas (as defined above).

Though I carry several, I admit there are not enough for the whole crew nor are they fitted.

Other threads talk ad nuaseum about PFD usage, but we know their effectiveness is limited in cold water. Some racers use dry suits as deck gear--I've done that. And you have not sailed cold water much if you have yet to face a cold swim to deal with something under the boat.

Expensive bulky fragile

But if you need one they are worth their weight in gold

Up to you

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Cameron B

I hear ya. They are pretty pricey as is most safety gear. As far as I know immersion suits that don't pass inspections are destroyed, so you won't find any that way.
The CG does sell surplus equipment to the public. If you google crown assets you should be able to find it.

Immersion suits are required on the Alaska fishing fleet. We were able to buy some low cost "used" ones that were out of date for commercial boats in Washington. Used them on the US west coast and sold them for what I paid for them in southern California.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by thinwater

A few days ago a strong swimmer decided to jump into the Chesapeake Bay (40F water temp) to recover a run-away dingy. He never surfaced.

Most likely he was a victim of cold water shock, which causes you to gulp in water involuntarily. It is a major cause of drowning in the UK, where cold water is common.

I can site any number of cases where the cold water victim drown in moments, even with an inflatable PFD. You still go under before it inflates. In the winter, we (the Annapolis area) always loses a few experienced sailors to falls from docks. They just sink.

Falling head-first into cold water can, and often does, kill within moments.

If you've never fallen into 32F water, you don't know. It hits like a hammer.

And an immersion suit likely wouldn't have done anything about these types of drownings.

If the guy had taken the time to think it through he would have borrowed a dingy to chase it down. Immersion suits make it really difficult to actually swim to a destination.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I don't have them and don't see the point... if you fall in you won't be wearing it... if a small ship is sinking you'll most likely have other stuff to worry about and won't be wearing it anyway.

Handiest bit of kit I have seen in the last half century was on a swedish ship we were operating. Fitted in the boats... a simple foil lined bag like a very basic sleeping bag with a draw string at the neck... ship sinks..you are in the boat... climb into this and all wind chill hypothermia issues go away.
All chucked out when the ship was reflagged... I saved a few and used them as sleeping bags for years... me being as tight as a crab's bum at forty fathoms and all... very cosy.

Something small enough to keep on your person, I could see some advantage but a suit buried in a compartment as the boat goes up in flames or you fall off...not so much.

I'm betting commercial ships have them because the insurance says they must. Also, even with a really bad situation, it takes a while for a 1000ft tanker to down. A 1ft diameter hole in a 35ft mono, and she can be down in under a minute...most people will be trying to get the dingy loose and not have time for extras.

Not saying there could never be a use but in the risk/reward scheme, you are probably better off putting that money to better maintenance on the boat to reduce the risk of it even being an issue.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Right ... found it (https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm). I'll keep an eye on it. Thanks.

When we went to Greenland in 2018, the crew were all required to have immersion suits. Some had Mustang ones, someone had a kitesurfing one; mine is an Ocean Rodeo Boss.


We practiced with them and did full people in the water man overboard practice in icy waters in Iceland. We used them a bit kayaking in Greenland. But we never wore them underway.


The comfort in cold water is absolutely amazing. They really work. Also they provide buoyancy.



However, I am not really sure that they would ever save anyone's life for the reasons Ping states. The only scenario I can think of is if you are going in the water but with quite a lot of warning so time to get it on amongst all the other emergency jobs. So I consider selling mine.

[Cpt Pat]

I sail offshore of San Francisco. In cold weather, I wear a "Mustang Survival MS2175 Deluxe Anti-Exposure Coverall and Flotation Work Suit." It is also a Type 5 PFD, though I wear an inflatable PFD with harness (Spinlock Deckvest 5D) over the suit for the tether attachment. My harness also has an AIS MOB transmitter.

For guests, I have "gumby" survival suits (see picture). I instruct my guest(s) how to put on the gumby suit as part of the pre-departure safety briefing. I also make sure they know that they will have to remove any inflatable PFD (a PFD inflating inside a gumby suit is a very bad, potentially fatal, thing) and show them where the Type 1 PFDs are located. I confirm they can get their PFD off and the gumby suit on in less than two minutes.


Two points about automatic PFDs and immersion suits:

1) Make sure you and your guests know where the PFD manual inflation handle is located. Don't trust your life to the automatic inflation trigger. When I ask guests where their manual inflation trigger is located -- on their own inflatable PFD that they've been wearing for some time, I'm surprised how often they have to search for it. I instruct them to simulate pulling the handle more than once. The importance of "muscle memory" is stressed in skydiving and should be in PFD operation because the consequences of not finding the activation handle can be the same in both cases. And in cold water, they will only have a short time where they have full use of their hands. I then inform them that the handle may not be visible in the water because it may be submerged or it may be too dark to see -- so remember where it is located! I tell them: "Just plan on pulling the handle, and if the PFD inflates first, it'll be a nice surprise." With hydrostatic releases in particular, there can be a significant automatic activation delay.

2) In my first survival course, while floating around in a cold pool in a gumby suit, I discovered that so much water can accumulate in the suit that trying to climb out of the water is practically impossible as all that water flows to the suit legs and is trapped. The suits are supposed to be water tight, but after a while, they inevitably take on water. The legs can easily hold 10 gallons of water (80 pounds). Wet suits depend on elastic tension (tight fit) to keep water from ballooning in the legs, gumby suits have no elastic tension since they are intended to be one-size-fits-all. I'm not sure what the solution is to this issue, maybe rip cords or one-way valves, but I keep a knife on my harness and intend to cut the gumby suit at the ankles before climbing out. The situation can be even worse when the legs and lower torso trap air. The victim can float inverted, or at best only float laying flat on the water with the nose and mouth too close to the surface - which is why I believe wearing a PFD with the suit helps mitigate that risk.

My work suit (above) isn't water tight, but at least I can release the velcro at the ankles to allow water to flow out.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

. . . .2) In my first survival course, while floating around in a cold pool in a gumby suit, I discovered that so much water can accumulate in the suit that trying to climb out of the water is practically impossible as all that water flows to the suit legs and is trapped. The suits are supposed to be water tight, but after a while, they inevitably take on water. The legs can easily hold 10 gallons of water (80 pounds). Wet suits depend on elastic tension (tight fit) to keep water from ballooning in the legs, gumby suits have no elastic tension since hey are intended to be one-size-fits-all. I'm not sure what the solution is to this issue, maybe rip cords or one-way valves, but I keep a knife on my harness and intend to cut the gumby suit at the ankles before climbing out.

I would immediately get rid of an immersion suit that leaked. That' downright dangerous.


I've been in the water for hours in mine and never a drop. Mine has elaborate natural rubber seals at the cuffs and neck.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I would immediately get rid of an immersion suit that leaked. That' downright dangerous.


I've been in the water for hours in mine and never a drop. Mine has elaborate natural rubber seals at the cuffs and neck.

I'm referring to gumby suit behavior - not a well-fitting immersion suit. I can't possibly keep an ensemble of all sizes of immersion suits for guests.

With gumby suits, the water enters at the face. The adjustment for the face is crude, and if it were tight there it wouldn't be one-size-fits-all. And if it were tight around the neck, well, the result of that is obvious...

In swells, wind waves, or spray; it's not possible to keep the face out of the water continuously. Especially if no PFD is being worn over the gumby suit. Your face ends up very close to the water while you float in a horizonal position. A PFD worn over the gumby keeps you more vertical in the water, which mitigates somewhat. Someone needs to invent a better gumby suit: maybe an inflation bladder around the sides of the face, a spray hood, external breath-inflatable bladders around the chest to approximate a PDF, or at least a gumby suit that doesn't lay the wearer flat on the water.

For myself, I prefer the Mustang work suit because I'm wearing it all the time anyway for warmth and I have a PFD on for use of the integral harness tether attachment. It's my guests using gumby suits that I worry about. I wish I had a better solution (besides telling them to buy a $700 work suit).

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

I'm referring to gumby suit behavior - not a well-fitting immersion suit. I can't possibly keep an ensemble of all sizes of immersion suits for guests.

With gumby suits, the water enters at the face. The adjustment for the face is crude, and if it were tight there it wouldn't be one-size-fits-all. And if it were tight around the neck, well, the result of that is obvious...

In swells, wind waves, or spray; it's not possible to keep the face out of the water continuously. Especially if no PFD is being worn over the gumby suit. Your face ends up very close to the water while you float in a horizonal position. A PFD worn over the gumby keeps you more vertical in the water, which mitigates somewhat. Someone needs to invent a better gumby suit: maybe an inflation bladder around the sides of the face, a spray hood, external breath-inflatable bladders around the chest to approximate a PDF, or at least a gumby suit that doesn't lay the wearer flat on the water.

For myself, I prefer the Mustang work suit because I'm wearing it all the time anyway for warmth and I have a PFD on for use of the integral harness tether attachment. It's my guests using gumby suits that I worry about. I wish I had a better solution (besides telling them to buy a $700 work suit).

I see. Still, it's not very confidence-inspiring.


Good on you for actually wearing your dry suit all the time. I never felt like doing that with mine, although it is well designed and as a "standby mode" where you can undo the neck seal. Maybe I'm just lazier than you. But I find it quite a bit less convenient than normal foulies, especially when you need to pee.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

When we went to Greenland in 2018, the crew were all required to have immersion suits. Some had Mustang ones, someone had a kitesurfing one; mine is an Ocean Rodeo Boss.

We practiced with them and did full people in the water man overboard practice in icy waters in Iceland. We used them a bit kayaking in Greenland. But we never wore them underway.

The comfort in cold water is absolutely amazing. They really work. Also they provide buoyancy.

However, I am not really sure that they would ever save anyone's life for the reasons Ping states. The only scenario I can think of is if you are going in the water but with quite a lot of warning so time to get it on amongst all the other emergency jobs. So I consider selling mine.

Yes... it's a consideration that has driven my previous choices for all my water activities. I've never been sold on the heavy duty warm gear when sea kayaking, wilderness canoeing, and now (for the past 20 years) my sailing and cruising. The problem comes down to functionality vs ultimate security.

Almost all my boating activities, and certainly the vast majority of my cruising, has been done in what most people call cold climates. I understand the dangers of cold water. But in my experience, clothes that provide full protection are also incredibly hard to function in. This is why I've always chosen a middle road for the gear.

That said, I don't (currently) carry a liferaft, so I'm wondering if these suits might part of this gap. I don't wish to get into a big debate about the utility of liferafts, but I think a lot of the same functional challenges you and Ping rightly point out, exist with these things.

[slug]

One dilemma with high quality safety equipment is How many sets do you carry on board ?
2 sets

4 sets

One set for each bunk ?