Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by daletournier

.

But here's where I'm at now. I had some fairly bad weather earlier this year in a very remote place, the last was at 3am in the morning. My boat fully reefed was getting way over powered ,and with this particular boat, heaving to is done under jib alone. To get the mainsail down I had to be on deck, I truly believe due to the weather on this occasion it was the most dangerous situation ive had while sailing, lightening all around, voilent seas wind etc. Every time I moved I very much made sure my grip was strong. If I fell off the boat I was dead, absolutely no doubt.
After this event it really got me thinking about future safety, catamaran stability seemed suddenly more important as well as mainsail furling, not leaving the cockpit has become important to me.
Now I'm not getting a cat but the next boat most likely will have mainsail furling, not a deal breaker but probably prefered.
I think its a case of choose your poison. Boats always a compromise!
.

I have experience that out of the Gibraltar strait when an announced F7 turned in a F9, Same problem: light boat, third reef on the main, big reefed genoa. Too much wind for the third reef and needing to raise the main.

The problem here was that I could furl the boat till 3th reef (from the cockpit) but to take all the sail down with high winds, I had to go out of the cockpit, to tie everything.

Not anymore, I just added a retrieving line from the top of the mainsail to the mast foot and back to the cockpit. now it is easy to take all sail down, even not going into the wind, from the cockpit. Having good bat cars is also a big help. I now have top cars and the diference is huge in what regards to bring the sail down with strong winds or even downwind.

[Littlechay]

Originally Posted by Polux

No, that is a Baltic 83 and yes that boom is a carbon furling boom by Offhore spars.
Baltic Yachts Archives - Offshore Spars

But i posted also a SWS (furling boom too), this one:

Ahh OK. Are you sure that is furling boom on the Baltic? It is difficult to tell from that angle but it doesn't look open on the top surface and there are what appear to be the reefing cars in about the right place; although no reefing pennants or lazy jacks rigged and the forward third of the foot does look as if it my be attached to a roller.

I had forgotten about SWS doing a furling main, what boom did they use? Usually they use Southern Spars.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Littlechay

Good point but I can't see the equation coming out on the side of furling unless you are looking very long term.

A new build would get there, eventually, retro fitting to an existing boat never

Totally agree that laminate sails of some sort are the way to go. We have been testing some of what Ullman are now marketing as the expedition series of sails for about eight years, or so, on the expedition boats that I work on. The first was a staysail that we put 4 or 5 seasons and well over 100,000 miles on before it blew on my watch one night somewhere 600 miles east of Uruguay; it had great shape right up until the end.

These are a kind of hybrid technology with carbon/vectran filaments, a film and a thin tafata covering to protect it all from UV.

20-25% weight saving over Dacron in our case.

One question I have is how they roll around the furler. I have not had experience of laminates on an in mast furler but the headsails initially roll fatter and looser and take some time to work in before they roll tight.

Are the laminates used on in mast furling mains the same, or do they roll nicely from day one?

Disclaimer : I'm not getting anything out mentioning Ullman here, just commenting on my experience with their sails and previously Quantum from the same loft in Cape Town.

I agree totally about retrofitting in-mast furling. Crazy.


My sails are just like yours. Film -- carbon/technora -- taffeta. Sounds GREAT, the kind of life you're getting -- WOW!

The mainsail rolls fine, very smoothly, and ultimately tighter than the dacron. This is a reflection of the lighter, thinner, and more flexible nature of the sailcloth, which is still evident even after being degraded by the necessary evil of the taffeta.

Plus the dacron sail started to develop potential jamming/snagging points where it was getting stretched out.

The only drawback is that the roll can unwind -- maybe because the roll is smaller and has more "breathing room" inside the mast -- so you have to be careful to tighten up the roll before unfurling. One trick for doing this is NOT to harden the furler with the outhaul stopped, but to let the sail go in with light tension on the outhaul. If you belay the outhaul, friction in the roll will prevent you from tightening it.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Littlechay

Ahh OK. Are you sure that is furling boom on the Baltic? It is difficult to tell from that angle but it doesn't look open on the top surface and there are what appear to be the reefing cars in about the right place; although no reefing pennants or lazy jacks rigged and the forward third of the foot does look as if it my be attached to a roller.

I had forgotten about SWS doing a furling main, what boom did they use? Usually they use Southern Spars.

Yes, look at the link I posted, it is from the boom maker and they refer several Baltics with their boom, including that one.
Baltic Yachts Archives - Offshore Spars
"Carbon Spar, Rod Rigging, Offshore Spars Hydraulic Furling Boom"

There are carbon designs that really don't look as a furling boom. Look at this Vismara:

"Offshore Spars carbon fiber rig, rod rigging, and manual Leisure furl boom."


Yes Southern spars but the market regarding furling booms had quite a development specially for big yachts and smaller brands are being bought by big ones or joined together. Southern and Nordic spars become a single company .
Nordic Mast and Southern Spars merger | The Daily Sail

They used Marten marine carbon furling booms but I guess they have been bought by someone, Leisure furl?

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And a third hand to smoothly feed out the outhaul . . .

Yes, I have an electric winch at that position, but it doesn't solve the outhaul problem.

I throw the outhaul line one turn around a staysail winch and that makes it easier to keep steady tension on it with one hand as we furl using a self tailing electric winch. We reverse the position of the two lines when unfurling.

Ours is an obsolete, out of production Profurl "slot effect" behind the mast system and I have been surprised to have grown to really appreciate it. When we bought the boat, I fully intended to remove it ASAP and replace with slab reefing and it wouldn't be that hard to do, but now that we've used it for a few years, I find myself hoping that it'll last forever! There's definitely a learning curve with in mast or behind the mast systems such as ours. The biggest lesson to learn is to ALWAYS furl on the right tack and ALWAYS keep tension on the outhaul during furling. In my experience that's about 95% of what you need to know about operating these systems. I didn't have anyone explaining that to me and confess that it took me several tries to learn those lessons the hard way but as Ken implied, those really are pretty straightforward lessons to learn and I think that most problems with these systems are due to the operator not pay attention to the tension while furling and then not paying attention during the first 1/4 of the outhaul process so any jams are caught and corrected while they are still minor and easy to fix.

Regarding Ken's video, there was a question about doing the same in strong winds and that's the beauty of this type of furling system because it actually gets easier to keep tension on the main when there's wind blowing on it, even strong winds blowing on it. Think of when it's easiest to get a nice tight furl on your rolling furling jib, in strong winds it would be difficult to NOT get a nice tight furl.

I suspect that most problems come from inexperience with the system on a particular boat so that means I wouldn't advise it for a charter boat, and if you think you might ever hire a delivery skipper I'd plan to spend some time briefing/training him on the idiosyncrasies of your particular boat before cutting him loose. Now that I've had a boat with such a system for awhile, if I were delivering someone else's boat that had in mast roller furling, I'd want the owner to demo it and I'd be sure to spend some time taking note of their system considering just HOW I was going to keep that critical tension on the outhaul and I'd always make sure I was looking at the leech as I slowly began the unfurling process. But once you get the hang of it, it's REALLY nice to be able to reef to any size main you want in any winds, without leaving the cockpit.

For any of these systems, you really need an electric or hydraulic motor or a powered winch for it to be practical. One side benefit of having an electric winch aboard is that it's much easier to go up the mast when required to. Earlier this week I removed the wind instrument and Windex from the top of our mast for the winter, and between the electric winch that's normally used for furling, and the voice activated intercom system with headsets, my wife and I have no trouble accomplishing what needs to be done in a controlled manner without any screaming or misunderstanding. The intercom system is also useful for anchoring.

I can't speak for the idiosyncrasies that might be inherent on some of the various in mast or in boom systems. I'm sure that some are great and some probably have some disqualifying issues, but after having actually had one of these systems for a few years, I have learned to appreciate the advantages and have come to not fear the disadvantages I had read about on forums like this one.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

. . . Regarding Ken's video, there was a question about doing the same in strong winds and that's the beauty of this type of furling system because it actually gets easier to keep tension on the main when there's wind blowing on it, even strong winds blowing on it. Think of when it's easiest to get a nice tight furl on your rolling furling jib, in strong winds it would be difficult to NOT get a nice tight furl.. . .

Indeed -- and that's part of the point I was trying to make earlier -- in-mast furling is more useful and works better in strong conditions. The harder the wind blows, the better it works, and the gladder you are to have it. And at the same time, the lack of roach is less noticeable and at some point already becomes irrelevant.

In my subjective opinion, in-mast furling is not really useful in lower latitudes.

[Kenomac]

OK here's another video of the main sail being deployed. Notice the constant pressure on the outhaul via the electric cockpit winch and the short bursts being administered to the Hood furling mechanism in order to prevent a jam. Light to no wind conditions which is the most difficult situation to unfurl.

Before the complaints begin regarding my video, yes I titled it incorrectly and that's my wife's finger in the picture.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K7Ozpx-p4y4

[neilpride]

Ken, What are we seeing there??

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Ken, What are we seeing there??

The proper technique for deploying the mainsail via the Hood in-mast furling system.

[neilpride]

Any diference v any other inmast furling system?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Is there any diference v any other inmast furling system?

None that I know of.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by myjoyboat

I got Reckmann furling main (hydraulic) on my boat - troubleless if used correct - first of all - furling/unfurling on the appropriate tack - see picture

Well , I agree 100% , 99% of jams are fools errors, having unstep a couple of mast to free the sail by the masthead, quite expensive by the way, we always found the same crap, 2 folds messed together sometimes , as usually some brands made the inner slot really small and then any portion of the sail not tight enough is a recipe for a jam.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The proper technique for deploying the mainsail via the Hood in-mast furling system.

I think what he was demonstrating is that it helps to pull the sail out in short bursts to make sure you keep enough tension on the clew so the sail is being pulled out of the slot in such a way that it can't fold over on itself and create a jam in the slot by the furling foil turning faster than the outhaul is pulling the sail out. These "short spurts" also avoids pulling too hard with a powered system and tearing or breaking something before you realize it's jammed.

[David B]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I think what he was demonstrating is that it helps to pull the sail out in short bursts to make sure you keep enough tension on the clew so the sail is being pulled out of the slot in such a way that it can't fold over on itself and create a jam in the slot by the furling foil turning faster than the outhaul is pulling the sail out. These "short spurts" also avoids pulling too hard with a powered system and tearing or breaking something before you realize it's jammed.

OK, from what I can see, it's a bit different to ours (Selden). I put the boom out-haul on the winch, and just keep tension on the furling line, so the outhaul is pulling the furl out, and the furling line is keeping tension on, so the furl stays tight.

Actually this is the trickiest of the two operations single-handed, as you also have to pull on the other end end of the furling loop to keep it from bunching up and coming off the furling drum. It can still be done without the assistance of your crew but is not as smooth (and continuous) as furling.

Again - not nearly as elegant an operation as with a motor-driven furler at the gooseneck, but still fine.

[Littlechay]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes Southern spars but the market regarding furling booms had quite a development specially for big yachts and smaller brands are being bought by big ones or joined together. Southern and Nordic spars become a single company .

OK on the offshore spars

Southern Spars also bought up Sparcraft. Just out of interest I'll have a chat with SWS / S Spars next time I'm there (Cape Town) to see what their current thoughts on main furlers and furling is. Will be a couple of months though.