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Old 15-11-2016, 16:34   #121
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by TheThunderbird View Post
A sail maker i inquired today got horrified at the idea.

No roach, possible jam, battens !?

It is justifiable only on very large, non performance oriented boats.
I see plenty (a surprising number) of boats in the 10 - 13 metre range with in-mast furling, so disagree with that sail maker (they are human too, and we each have our perspectives).
Battens - would not have in a furling system.
Full battens with decent cars is another thing of course (and much nicer to get into a boom bag, although the bag has to go a bit further up the mast to cover the cars).
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Old 15-11-2016, 17:04   #122
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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That's very appealing. I have friends that have done 10,000's of nm on their Amel. My view of furling mains was quite negative until being around the eas of managing their boat.
Im in Europe next week (i think) and most boats I'm looking at have them, therefore for me I'll probably have one regardless.


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If you or anyone else still have any doubts regarding the reliability of an in-mast furling system, just PM CF member "Charlie" who was on our boat this past summer during a surprise 40 knot round up off southern Italy. He'll back up my story about wind speed and how fast we were able to furl in the main sail WITHOUT A JAM!
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Old 15-11-2016, 17:06   #123
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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A foot out of the hoist doesn't sound like a big problem to me.
Me either, especially on that boat. When you're already lugging around 1.5 tons just in fluids it makes no difference at all IMO. But if you're begging for every little bit of performance.... The real difference on that particular boat was using the yankee (it's a solent rig) in anything under 12-15 knots or so because the difference in power between it and the jib was huge. I actually liked what happened when you rolled in just a foot or so, because the entire main flattened out a lot like really trimming on the backstay on my boat.

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I don't know -- as I said, I haven't tried it, and would not really venture a strong opinion until I do. Realizing that not having any actual experience doesn't stop some of us from having strong opinions
And that right there is the official motto of the internet.
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Old 15-11-2016, 18:14   #124
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Perhaps
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Old 16-11-2016, 02:19   #125
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by David B View Post
. . .
Battens - would not have in a furling system.. . .
There are lots of horror stories about battens and in-mast furling.

My sailmaker persuaded me that with upside-down pockets and very thin carbon fiber battens, these problems have been solved.

My experience with them so far (about 7000 miles) has been excellent -- they are not noticed when furling, and they make a dramatic difference in sail shape.

Just one data point -- not offered as proof that there is no risk.
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Old 16-11-2016, 02:27   #126
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

By the way, it occurred to me that no one has mentioned the economic side of in-mast furling.

The initial cost of the system is obviously more -- the special mast is more expensive, and you have the foil, bearings, furling mechanism.

However, the sail is considerably less expensive than a normal full batten mainsail. It is much simpler to make.

And also, the sail lasts considerably longer due to ideal storage without creases and completely protected inside the mast.

So the long term cost might be similar or even cheaper. In-mast furling is a really good pair with a laminate sail which resists stretching for a long time, but which can be damaged from chafe, UV, creasing, etc. A laminate sail in an in-mast furling rig can last a very long time.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
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Old 16-11-2016, 03:27   #127
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
And also, the sail lasts considerably longer due to ideal storage without creases and completely protected inside the mast.
Indeed, last time we had the sail off was to change the standing rigging 3 years ago. Sail lives full time winter and summer nicely rolled up inside the mast.

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
So the long term cost might be similar or even cheaper. In-mast furling is a really good pair with a laminate sail which resists stretching for a long time, but which can be damaged from chafe, UV, creasing, etc. A laminate sail in an in-mast furling rig can last a very long time.
Something that I am pondering over as our in mast main is now 15 years old and due a change. The leach has a hook and the panels look stretched.

It is small enough that I could get away with a good quality Dacron and it would last well. However, a laminate with its ability to hold the correct shape longer whilst protected when not used and nicely rolled up not scrunched into a sail bag or stay pack could be a great solution, depending on cost.
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Old 16-11-2016, 03:52   #128
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Something that I am pondering over as our in mast main is now 15 years old and due a change. The leach has a hook and the panels look stretched.

It is small enough that I could get away with a good quality Dacron and it would last well. However, a laminate with its ability to hold the correct shape longer whilst protected when not used and nicely rolled up not scrunched into a sail bag or stay pack could be a great solution, depending on cost.
You'll be fine with Dacron, but you will find sailing with a laminate sail very interesting. I'll introduce you to my sailmaker.

Note that you will get much more effect out of a laminate headsail, than out of a laminate main. Maybe it's time to change both sails? Come on, you know you want to . . . .

New sails are the best thing by far you can spend money on, on your boat at least.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
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Old 16-11-2016, 04:00   #129
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Changed the Genoa out 2 years ago for a cross cut "silver quality" sail from Kemps. They have an office 200 yards from the boat so all very convenient.

Made a huge difference, we now sail forwards rather than sideways. The point about greater benefit on changing the Genoa isn't lost on me; especially as it's a masthead rig so the Genoa really provides the power. The main more about balancing things up and providing a slot. One of the reasons for being shy about changing the sail shape to include vertical battens, which I have discussed with Kemps, is that may upset the boat. She has weather helm, but increasing the roach and therefore sail area might/could increase the weather helm.

This is one area I am quite happy being a follower and let someone else find the mistakes, learn the lessons etc.


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Old 16-11-2016, 04:07   #130
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Changed the Genoa out 2 years ago for a cross cut silver quality sail from Kemps. They have an office 200 yards from the boat so all very convenient.

Made a huge difference, we now sail forwards rather than sideways.

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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 16-11-2016, 04:32   #131
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
By the way, it occurred to me that no one has mentioned the economic side of in-mast furling.

So the long term cost might be similar or even cheaper. In-mast furling is a really good pair with a laminate sail which resists stretching for a long time, but which can be damaged from chafe, UV, creasing, etc. A laminate sail in an in-mast furling rig can last a very long time.
Good point but I can't see the equation coming out on the side of furling unless you are looking very long term.

A new build would get there, eventually, retro fitting to an existing boat never

Totally agree that laminate sails of some sort are the way to go. We have been testing some of what Ullman are now marketing as the expedition series of sails for about eight years, or so, on the expedition boats that I work on. The first was a staysail that we put 4 or 5 seasons and well over 100,000 miles on before it blew on my watch one night somewhere 600 miles east of Uruguay; it had great shape right up until the end.

These are a kind of hybrid technology with carbon/vectran filaments, a film and a thin tafata covering to protect it all from UV.

20-25% weight saving over Dacron in our case.

One question I have is how they roll around the furler. I have not had experience of laminates on an in mast furler but the headsails initially roll fatter and looser and take some time to work in before they roll tight.

Are the laminates used on in mast furling mains the same, or do they roll nicely from day one?

Disclaimer : I'm not getting anything out mentioning Ullman here, just commenting on my experience with their sails and previously Quantum from the same loft in Cape Town.
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Old 16-11-2016, 04:44   #132
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Littlechay View Post

That's an SWS isn't it? Slab reefing anyway. I don't think they have put roller reefing on one of their boats yet. I know they are opposed to it, but they do like to be racy.
No, that is a Baltic 83 and yes that boom is a carbon furling boom by Offhore spars.
Baltic Yachts Archives - Offshore Spars

But i posted also a SWS (furling boom too), this one:

There is also a Swan on that post. In fact those furling booms are the most used on recent big yachts since they are the best choice. The exception is if they are really racing pointed and then they can have slab reefing but that demands a big crew and even most that race occasionally their boats on luxury regattas, that are major social events, use these furling booms.
Here you have the big Wally saudade sailing with a very short crew for a maxi with a furling boom with strong winds:

This beauty
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Old 16-11-2016, 04:54   #133
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
By the way, it occurred to me that no one has mentioned the economic side of in-mast furling.

The initial cost of the system is obviously more -- the special mast is more expensive, and you have the foil, bearings, furling mechanism.
...
As i explained already that is not so. A Boom furling is more expensive but a in mast furling is not more expensive than a traditional mast equipped with a single line boom reefing system. These are the two options that most brands offer as option.

Most brands offer the two systems at the same price but when I bought ( 2002) a Bavaria, that come standard with a in furling mast, I had to pay more for the option of a traditional rig with one line boom furling system.
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Old 16-11-2016, 04:59   #134
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Indeed, last time we had the sail off was to change the standing rigging 3 years ago. Sail lives full time winter and summer nicely rolled up inside the mast.



Something that I am pondering over as our in mast main is now 15 years old and due a change. The leach has a hook and the panels look stretched.

It is small enough that I could get away with a good quality Dacron and it would last well. However, a laminate with its ability to hold the correct shape longer whilst protected when not used and nicely rolled up not scrunched into a sail bag or stay pack could be a great solution, depending on cost.
We replaced our dacron furling main with a DYS tri-radial cut Dolphin Sails main sail, vertical battons with "Sailcoat" last season. BIG performance difference.
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Old 16-11-2016, 05:02   #135
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Re: Is a furling main safe when singlehanding?

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Originally Posted by Littlechay View Post
Good point but I can't see the equation coming out on the side of furling unless you are looking very long term.

A new build would get there, eventually, retro fitting to an existing boat never

Totally agree that laminate sails of some sort are the way to go. We have been testing some of what Ullman are now marketing as the expedition series of sails for about eight years, or so, on the expedition boats that I work on. The first was a staysail that we put 4 or 5 seasons and well over 100,000 miles on before it blew on my watch one night somewhere 600 miles east of Uruguay; it had great shape right up until the end.

These are a kind of hybrid technology with carbon/vectran filaments, a film and a thin tafata covering to protect it all from UV.

20-25% weight saving over Dacron in our case.

One question I have is how they roll around the furler. I have not had experience of laminates on an in mast furler but the headsails initially roll fatter and looser and take some time to work in before they roll tight.

Are the laminates used on in mast furling mains the same, or do they roll nicely from day one?

Disclaimer : I'm not getting anything out mentioning Ullman here, just commenting on my experience with their sails and previously Quantum from the same loft in Cape Town.
We have DYS with sailcoat, so the sails slid into the slot on day one like a "hot knife through butter."

You might need to take me off your ignore list to read this.
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