Old B&G Network Instrument Wiring

[Ultegra]

Hola,
Unfortunately it wouldn’t work. The reason I finally determined is due to the B&G NMEA0183 sentence coding which is not compatible with the new stuff. I tried data converters to no avail. Sadly.

[DeValency]

That’s a bummer…
Have you tried the Actisense NGW converter? Someone at the B&G Facebook group told me, about a year ago, it worked for him.
I’ve sent the document with the B&G NMEA-0183 messaging for their review.
THANKS.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by Ultegra

Thanks for the quick response.
It’s that wire code on that page in the HYDRA manual that I’m not understanding.

I’m not getting what are the talker + and - and what are the listener + and -.
If I can get that I should be able to get this to work. Fingers crossed.
I was on hold for an hour and a half with B&G tech support today on Skype before my call dropped. Then I couldn’t get re connected.

If you do not understand what "talker" and "listener" are you will not get anywhere wiring a NMEA0183 system. There are LOTS of descriptions of the NMEA0183 system on the web, they ALL describe these terms.

[andyskip]

Originally Posted by DeValency

Hello,

This is very helpful and interesting. I have the B&G Network Quad: Wind(2), Depth, Speed and repeater at the nav station. No GPS etc. at this system. I have all new Raymarine MFDs, Quantum Radar and a new Zeus MFD I got only in order to get a better display of the old B&G network instruments.

From all the wirings in the documents attached, my understanding is that the black wire in the Network cable and the GREEN are those I need to connect to the Acisense NGW-1 adapter 0183 to 2000 https://actisense.com/products/nmea-2000-gateway-ngw-1/

*** But you write the green is not connected?

What was your final solution?

Thanks!

Hiya. Sorry if I confused. You are right - you need black and green. However of the two tails, green is only connnected on the FEMALE tail side...

"In addition to this, EVERY head unit outputs NMEA0183 to the 'female' tail, i.e. with sockets. This is a green wire, and is connected to pin 4. Refer to the 'B&G Output Cable' plan."

Before you connect, you can test the output with an LED. if you have found a working NMEA 0183 output you will see the LED flickering with the data sentences. Hope that helps - let me know how you get on I'd love to know...

[andyskip]

Originally Posted by Ultegra

Hola,
Unfortunately it wouldn’t work. The reason I finally determined is due to the B&G NMEA0183 sentence coding which is not compatible with the new stuff. I tried data converters to no avail. Sadly.

As an aside.... when feeding in old B&G 'Network" instrument NMEA1083 into a very new and shiny B&G Zeus 3 plotter...

- Depth and Speed worked fine
- Wind did not as it doesn't recognise the sentence format

Per your note... I don't think a NMEA0183->2000 converter would help here... as far as I know they just relay the data as is, rather than translating legacy codes to newer standards.

It's frustrating but really not that surprising when connecting such old stuff. I did ask them to update the Zeus 3 firmware as this is all it would take. But but holding my breath as it won't be a priority for them.

[andyskip]

Here are the codes the Zeus3 will recognise... unfortunately the old Network Wind unit outputs VWR (relative wind) and VWA (absolute wind) not the MWV / MWD it understands...

[markxengineerin]

I have also been working on this- so far not getting any signal at all on my homemade T cable (Red + and Blue -) from the Network. I guess the Red wire is the "talker", but what is blue? Another talker channels that's the inverse of Red? Or is it actually a "ground" to be connected to the Ground pin of whatever device we are using to read the signal?

How should a LED be connected, in order to check for presence of a signal ? I would guess that between Red and Blue or either Red or Blue to Ground would work, haven't tried yet.

Once I have a signal, I have a PicoScope that I've never used for this sort of thing (totally new to digital communication in general), but if there's a way to read the signal on the scope, maybe it can be parsed and then the same possible with an Arduino, which can then translate to real life utility.
https://www.picotech.com/download/da...Data_Sheet.pdf

I suppose my next step is to read the NMEA0183 documentation- if anyone knows which sub-version of this was used by B&G or has tips on where to start learning, that would be great.

[andyskip]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

I have also been working on this- so far not getting any signal at all on my homemade T cable (Red + and Blue -) from the Network. I guess the Red wire is the "talker", but what is blue? Another talker channels that's the inverse of Red? Or is it actually a "ground" to be connected to the Ground pin of whatever device we are using to read the signal?

How should a LED be connected, in order to check for presence of a signal ? I would guess that between Red and Blue or either Red or Blue to Ground would work, haven't tried yet.

Once I have a signal, I have a PicoScope that I've never used for this sort of thing (totally new to digital communication in general), but if there's a way to read the signal on the scope, maybe it can be parsed and then the same possible with an Arduino, which can then translate to real life utility.
https://www.picotech.com/download/da...Data_Sheet.pdf

I suppose my next step is to read the NMEA0183 documentation- if anyone knows which sub-version of this was used by B&G or has tips on where to start learning, that would be great.

Have a look at the attached cable schematic for cable colours. I'm a bit confused as there is no blue wire in the instrument tails. In the tails RED is +12V. However in the NMEA output cable they used a red/blue wires... in this one RED is the TX+, BLUE is TX-. There was no standard, and colours mean different things in different cables.

Regarding the LED test, first identify the +ve and -ve legs (if not marked) by connecting it across a power supply. Then connect it across what you think is the NMEA talker pair, until you see it flashing. You won't hurt anything by connecting it to the wrong outputs / the wrong way round.

[markxengineerin]

Sorry I was referring to the output cable

They could not possibly have been more confusing, what is Signal and Return? ha

TX+ and TX- ..... this sounds like they are both talkers, one the inverse of the other That is the info I was looking for, thanks! (And are you 100% sure?)

[andyskip]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

Sorry I was referring to the output cable

They could not possibly have been more confusing, what is Signal and Return? ha

TX+ and TX- ..... this sounds like they are both talkers, one the inverse of the other That is the info I was looking for, thanks! (And are you 100% sure?)

Ah yes.... good that you have that cable. Aside from the different wiring colours the terminology is the other thing that can be confusing.

When people say NMEA 'Talker', 'Transmit', 'TX', 'Output' that's all the same thing. That's your data output signal.

Conversely, NMEA 'Listener', 'Receive', 'RX', 'Input' are all names for the data input.

In other cases something may be just called 'signal' which is TX+ or RX+ depending on whether they are describing an output or input which you would know from the context.

Both data outputs and inputs have a two wire 'pair'. But here's the next confusion... Sometimes (depending on the electronic design) you get a dedicated data pair, for output they may be called 'TX+' and 'TX-'. But sometimes just 'Signal' and 'GND' which can be a common ground (used as power ground as well as the signal ground).

In this case: 'Output Signal' is 'TX+' and 'Output Return' is TX-. That's your data output pair. Connect the LED's positive leg to 'Output Signal' and the negative leg to 'Output Return' and you should see it flashing.

This is the thing with NMEA0183 ... there was never an agreed standard, different suppliers used different terminology and cable colours etc etc.

But to reassure you: NMEA0183 electrics are designed not to fail if things get connected up wrong. They have circuit protection built in. So if you wire data lines up wrong it just won't work.

So use the LED to test, if nothing happens try it the other way round etc etc just have a play.

OR... even better, if you have a plotter you may be able to find an NMEA0183 test screen which will display any data received as text on a scrolling screen. Otherwise it's back to the LED.

Hope that helps.

[markxengineerin]

I don't actually have the cable, it was just the easiest way to talk about the wires ; )

In my notes (collected from random internet sources a long while back), I have these:



So, it confirms what's been said earlier in this thread. What we need is a way to decode / translate "VWR", or (something similar to but not quite VWR).

I was hoping my oscilloscope would be able to take a look at the signal and confirm it's intelligible, but after some more research (disclaimer, I am not computer scientist), it looks like the NMEA "serial decoding" would have to be built into the scope's software, and of course it is not. So we have to go a step deeper into the weeds.

If the baud rate is 4800, then I think the Tx signal will go high/low 4800 times in 1 second. If I record this string of 4800 events (0's and 1's), then there must be a way to translate 0's and 1's into recognizable characters. Maybe this?
https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/...to-binary.html

If we expect $IIVWR to appear right before our VWR data, then I need to look though the 0's and 1's to find
00100100 01001001 01001001 01010110 01010111 01010010
following that should be the easily translate-able wind data.

Even if B&G didn't follow the standard, it should be possible to find a pattern by changing only 1 variable at a time on a bench test (anemometers RPM, arrow direction) and observing the result.

If this works, I think Arduino or other simple tool could give us all what we want without too much effort.

Is this the right path?

[h20man]

You may also want to get the NMEA sentences that were archived:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220902...0Mnemonics.pdf

[andyskip]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

Even if B&G didn't follow the standard, it should be possible to find a pattern by changing only 1 variable at a time on a bench test (anemometers RPM, arrow direction) and observing the result.

If this works, I think Arduino or other simple tool could give us all what we want without too much effort.

Is this the right path?

Yes absolutely. NMEA0183 was based on a very common standard for serial data called RS232:

"The data communication specification for NMEA version 1, 2 and 3 is essentially the same as RS232 with the settings: 4800 baud, 1 start bit, 1 stop bit and “No Parity”. In addition, NMEA 0183 version 3.0 added a new baud rate of 38400 baud."

In this case I think you'll be v1 at 4800 baud (bit rate) only.

I'm not sure you'll need to do much to read the data (just use a standard serial interface and then as you say try and figure out the data format. It should be something logical i.e. not encrypted.

By the way on an Arduino or Raspberry PI there are USBs and USB ports are actually just serial interfaces (with power) so you may not even need a serial converter.

Let me know how you get on.... interesting.

[andyskip]

I have been talking and emailind with Tom at Navico (who own the B&G brand and look after B&G equipment). He's actually very helpful and provided some of the old documenttion.

He agreed to ask their dev team to update their Zeus3 firmware to recognise the legacy VWR and VWA sentences. Hoewever given it was just me and an odd on-off request I doubt they will see it as a priority. His last comment to me:

"The suggestion has been reviewed but I haven't had any statement on whether it will be implemented into a future release and at what date."

Really they should do this... we are talking compatibility with their own product range albeit old. And as I said in earlier posts, Depth and Speed work. It's only Wind that does not.

Anyway if anyone would like to add their own requests then go ahead and email or call him on: 01794 518448‬ and Service.UK@navico.com

They may up the urgency for this if more people ask. They just need to include this in a sortware upgrade (i.e. firmware release).

[poiu]

Originally Posted by andyskip

I have been talking and emailind with Tom at Navico (who own the B&G brand and look after B&G equipment). He's actually very helpful and provided some of the old documenttion.

He agreed to ask their dev team to update their Zeus3 firmware to recognise the legacy VWR and VWA sentences. Hoewever given it was just me and an odd on-off request I doubt they will see it as a priority. His last comment to me:

"The suggestion has been reviewed but I haven't had any statement on whether it will be implemented into a future release and at what date."

Really they should do this... we are talking compatibility with their own product range albeit old. And as I said in earlier posts, Depth and Speed work. It's only Wind that does not.

Anyway if anyone would like to add their own requests then go ahead and email or call him on: 01794 518448‬ and Service.UK@navico.com

They may up the urgency for this if more people ask. They just need to include this in a sortware upgrade (i.e. firmware release).

I've got similar problems and Navico advised me to get their Fastnet interface 000-13323-001 so as to convert their data into the N2K network. The trouble is it doesn't do depth. It does do wind OK and all the other data. I'm going to end up with buying the Actisense also, just to get the missing depth (hopefully).