OK Navigators, what are these for?

[Lodesman]

So it looks like there are two helm stations (?) and an awful lot of voice-pipes. Is there a separate bridge and this is the wheelhouse? I don't see a chart table. If the navigation was done here, I would accept the 2 as a gyro error, but to me it seems like a wheelhouse, and because of the windows, a secondary pilotage position. The course board is obviously a "helmsman's helper" so my thinking is anything on it has to do with steering, not navigating. MHO.

[hip82]

TVMDC AW

True
Variation
Magnetic
Deviation
Compass
(add west)

Better remembered by "True Virgins Make Dull Companions At Weddings"

[thegui]

The numbers are on the annunciator that mean number of TURNs the shaft is rotating.
It is used to communicate the info to the engine room.

[Doek]

My 2 cents. On long offshore passages I instruct the helmsman to try to stay within 2 degrees of our course (sometimes impossible in rough weather) and I tell them to advise the next helmsman taking over, whether he was routinely above or below the intended course and by how many degrees so that the new helmsman can try to make a correction for it during his watch and then advise the next helmsman of any error he felt he may have caused. Back when we used deduced reckoning, this helped us keep a more accurate plot.

[pauljboudreau]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Since it’s next to the course, is that perhaps the allowable variation (shows that the required course is 264, but 262 is ok, over 264 isn’t)

Exactly what it is , the helmsman should not be +or- 2 degree of the course demanded by the capitain

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

So it looks like there are two helm stations (?) and an awful lot of voice-pipes. Is there a separate bridge and this is the wheelhouse? I don't see a chart table. If the navigation was done here, I would accept the 2 as a gyro error, but to me it seems like a wheelhouse, and because of the windows, a secondary pilotage position. The course board is obviously a "helmsman's helper" so my thinking is anything on it has to do with steering, not navigating. MHO.

Given that 99% of the time she was in hand steering it would have been in pilotage waters it is reasonable to assume that it is gyro error and gyro course to steer... for the benefit of the watchkeeping h'officers..

I asked the question over on a site inhabited by boring old pharts like myself and that was the consensus...

That is the navigation bridge or wheelhouse, terms are interchangeable... the chart room on the QM and 99% of ships up into the 1960s was just that .. a chart 'room' at the back of the wheelhouse...

The 'bling' upsets me.... in service the telegraphs and pretty much every thing else was painted... normally in either 'eau de nil' or grey.... my sources tell me QM's were green.

Photo shows this... also shows a very early post war radar the like of which I have never seen before....

I did manage to winkle out a chap who had sailed as 'bridge boy' on her in the 60's... what he had to say..

'In my mind's eye I see the flag-locker, the Kent Clear-view screen (do ships still have, them?), a voice-pipe directly to the Master's bunk, a movement book, several brass telegraphs, a wooden wheel inlaid with brass, a lanyard for the steam whistle, a Willett-Bruce compressed air whistle control, spotlessly scrubbed gratings, a pilot's chair, etc,etc, and many other things missing from this list - almost all now gone but not forgotten.


As I recall, the flag locker was port side of the wheelhouse, on the after bulkhead, inboard of them were the docking telephones. Port side, just for'd of the door was the radio telephone booth. Telegraphs, engine & docking were both doubled up on both sides of the wheelhouse, as were the brass wheels. The chart room as usual was in the after part of the wheelhouse, and the 1 radar, heads up only in my day, was to the starboard side of the chart table. The helm indicator was on the for'd bulkhead, no digital display on that, or anything else, and it had to be covered with a highly polished perforated plate at night. Wheels were alternated, one used out from Southampton, and the other outward from New York. We boys were allowed to sit on the flag locker when not grafting.'

The more observant will realise this is a 'posed' photo... as the ER telegraphs are at FWE.

2nd photo is as built... taken as she was about to head out on acceptance trails.... that would be a dockyard matey on the wheel and the builder's rep in the fedora...

Final note... she had totally independent steering systems... all the way from the seering flat to the duplicated wheels.

Final final note re bridge manning... typically on British liners manning would be senior and junior deck officer, quartermaster, bridge lookout, focsle or crows nest lookout, and at least one bridge boy... whose job it was to make the cucumber sandwiches and brewed coffee for the officers and , when it was on the menu, fetch scampi from the 1st class galley for the evening 8 to 12 ..

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Given that 99% of the time she was in hand steering it would have been in pilotage waters it is reasonable to assume that it is gyro error and gyro course to steer... for the benefit of the watchkeeping h'officers..


Perhaps. Any idea what the arrow indicates?

Photo shows this... also shows a very early post war radar the like of which I have never seen before....
.

The cabinet in the first photo? Looks like it might be RDF equipment.

[Cadence]

I'd bet we are looking at the desired course and the helmsmen's instruction to steer 2 degrees off on the compass card. The navigator or navigators where not on the bridge 24/7. Maybe magnet deviation for their position or windage and drift?
Their GPS took a dump. :-)

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I'd bet we are looking at the desired course and the helmsmen's instruction to steer 2 degrees off on the compass card. The navigator or navigators where not on the bridge 24/7. Maybe magnet deviation for their position or windage and drift?
Their GPS took a dump. :-)

Oh yes they were..... and the ship would have been on autopilot from pilot to pilot.... the quartermaster on watch normally lurked just outside the leeward wheelhouse door doubling as lookout..

The purpose of the little arrow is... I'm afraid... lost in the mists of time.... none of the BOPhs I asked had a clue....

Re the bit of equipment on the post war picture... far more likely to have been radar than RDF... maybe 'son of 271'... QM was one of the few merchant ships to be fitted with radar during ww2...
RDF by that time were quite small and simple and remained relatively unchanged well into the 60s ... and lived... with the echo sounder... in the chartroom..

The RDF the ship was fitted with at birth normally went with it to the grave... radar on the other hand...

CRTs on RDFs only started to appear on Japanese built ships in the late 60s.. and those were very compact units.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Oh yes they were..... and the ship would have been on autopilot from pilot to pilot.... the quartermaster on watch normally lurked just outside the leeward wheelhouse door doubling as lookout..

The purpose of the little arrow is... I'm afraid... lost in the mists of time.... none of the BOPhs I asked had a clue....

Re the bit of equipment on the post war picture... far more likely to have been radar than RDF... maybe 'son of 271'... QM was one of the few merchant ships to be fitted with radar during ww2...
RDF by that time were quite small and simple and remained relatively unchanged well into the 60s ... and lived... with the echo sounder... in the chartroom..

The RDF the ship was fitted with at birth normally went with it to the grave... radar on the other hand...

CRTs on RDFs only started to appear on Japanese built ships in the late 60s.. and those were very compact units.

Maybe I misunderstand? We are speaking of a vessel that went into service in 1934 The photo may be of her restored to her days of glory?

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Steered offshore by autopilot.... upper numbers refer to gyro error which is refered to as + or - .... not E or W....

Rarely if ever more gyro error than 2* high or low.

She had gyro and autopilot as built.. Part 16

Ha Ha Ha
The question answered.
Do you ever feel like you are banging your head against a wall

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

Ha Ha Ha
The question answered.
Do you ever feel like you are banging your head against a wall

Well, to be quite honest....yes....

Photo of her new July 1947 radar installation below...vvvvv ... in which you can still see her original 271 .... fitted in 1942 ... scanner in the background.

which ties in with the radar setup in the wheelhouse in that previous photo... in which you can even see the conduit carrying the waveguide up to the compass deck/flying bridge/monkey island....

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

Ha Ha Ha
The question answered.
Do you ever feel like you are banging your head against a wall

So then back to the arrow... could it be that the gyro error would fluctuate + to - ? (I can't imagine why..) and they would need a way to show the helmsman which to look at? (still curious about that spinning arrow) Well for that matter what DOES cause gyro error?

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Maybe I misunderstand? We are speaking of a vessel that went into service in 1934 The photo may be of her restored to her days of glory?

From all the photos I have seen the only changes between 1936 and 1967 involved the fitting of two extra voice pipes ( for reasons unknown) by the binnacle and the coming and going of assorted radars.... one of which can still be seen on the bridge front directly in front of the ( fitted as built ) Sperry autopilot.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Don C L

So then back to the arrow... could it be that the gyro error would fluctuate + to - ? (I can't imagine why..) and they would need a way to show the helmsman which to look at? (still curious about that spinning arrow) Well for that matter what DOES cause gyro error?

The mercury ballistics in a Sperry MK14 were meant to make it a perfect north seeking machine... which if the ship stays still it is....


However a combination of course, speed and latitude introduce small errors... there is/was a thingo on the Mk14 where you could enter these values and that would sort things.... to within a degree or so...

That is the simple explanation ... the full explanation would take some time...