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colemj · 03-02-2015, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adelie

History:
Royal Majesty
June 1995
Cruise ship steamed no GPS SIGNAL for 34hr before running aground.
http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/profile/ade...%20Majesty.pdf

Reality check: The Europeans are concerned enough about the security of satellite positioning that they are pouring $100Ms or perhaps $1B into upgrading LORAN to the next generation eLORAN.

OK, so a single incident from 20yrs ago is all we have? I really am curious to know if this is a larger issue.

I should also note that state of the art commercial GPS on that ship (according to the article) relied on position fix from 3 satellites, and was so new and untested that they were running a simultaneous Loran-C system as their main navigation and checking the GPS against it.

And the GPS connection was lost because the installation was done with open wiring banging against the flying bridgedeck until it broke.

Then there was the whole issue of them getting into trouble because their autopilot was set to use GPS data and was not intelligent to know when those data were no longer available - so it held onto the last XTE reading given by the last GPS position.

None of this is hardly representative of any commercial system or installation today - let alone recreational. For example, most of our recreational GPS's on board receive both GPS and GLONASS and use 24-32 satellites for a fix. Additionally, there isn't an autopilot made that won't start screaming if its position fix goes down.

Did you even read this article? If so, are you still willing to use it as an example for your point?

While the Europeans may be concerned about the positional security of their non-existant satellite system, the US and Russia are making no similar plans. Perhaps the push to eLoran has more to do with not actually having a satellite system in place?

While it is in the realm of almost impossible for a cyber attack to actually bring down a satellite constellation, let's pretend it is imminent.

Do you really want to use your paper charts to navigate toward the end of civilization? Do you think there will even be any value in paper charts then? Do you think recreational boating will be your foremost concern?

In hindsight, don't you think that cyber attack line of reasoning against electronic charting is kind of silly?

Mark

phydeaux · 03-02-2015, 16:47

Agree that they are nominally antique. But, what happens when you lose power? The GPS, Chartplotter. etc., are gone. If you've got charts, hand bearing compass, and parallels of some sort, you're OK along the coasts...

ishipaco · 03-02-2015, 17:23

I loved our Nobeltec software during our 14 years and over 60,000 n.m. of full-time cruising. But I'll modify that with a little story.

About ten years ago we were on a long passage from Panama to the Rio Dulce, Guatemala. After several days at sea we had reached the north coast of Honduras and were heading west. Things were going well. I had our charting software humming and we were making good time.

I stood the night watches. I had turned our laptop computer off to conserve power. About 0400 in the dark of an imminent dawn, I turned on the laptop and booted up into Windows XP. What I saw was a message from Microsoft stating that my copy of Windows needed to be authenticated within a couple of days or it would quit working. All I had to do was connect to Microsoft via the internet, validate my copy of Windows, and I would then be able to use my navigation software. Great; we were probably 20 miles offshore. How was I going to do that?

Probably the most valuable trait a cruiser can have is the ability to improvise when faced with unique challenges. I knew that we were not far from the island of Roatan. I altered course slightly and headed toward the south coast of the island. About 0700 we were closing on the island. I steered as close As I could and mounted our 15db omni-directional wifi antenna to a stanchion. Fortunately the computer would still work (for a short time). As we sailed past French Harbor, it didn't take me long to find an unsecured wifi site on the coast and, within a few minutes, had managed to validate my copy of Windows.

We always carried paper charts of the areas we visited and found them quite useful on several occasions. We made it to the Rio Dulce and used our charting software with no problems. So, what did I learn from this experience?

(1) I learned that our huge number of paper charts were a valuable resource when the computer fails for any reason. In fact, they could save your life in certain kinds of situation.

(2) While in Rio Dulce, I installed LInux on my computer in a dual boot configuration with my Windows XP. If Windows was going to throttle my computer and keep me from accessing our cruising software, I wanted to be able to boot up Linux in order to still be able to use our wifi and other software. I've never looked back and still hold a deep resentment towards Microsoft and its domineering attitude to managing personal computers. FYI, our copy of Windows XP on the laptop was a legal, fully paid-for, installation, not a pirated version.

Another related question: what would you do if your GPS failed? Do you know how to use a sextant and reduction tables. Actually, I wonder how many cruisers today even own a sextant? More troubling, I wonder how many new cruisers nowadays even know what a sextant is??

Just saying...

rbirch · 03-02-2015, 20:37

Most countries that are associated with the UK still require paper charts, also for instance Australia and New Zealand can and would inspect those charts to check your plotting and navigation when entering or travelling around if required.

holmek · 03-02-2015, 22:29

Very much a dinosaur. I use Pilot Charts for ocean crossings,: all the weather data right on my track. There used to be Charlie's Charts and Mahina cruising packages which were "cheap" and bound in groups for your area. - don't know whether they still exist?

Safffff · 03-02-2015, 22:44

This whole topic will be redundant shortly. All is needed is a roll up chart size waterproof kindle type display that won't need electricity except when changing to a new chart. Could even have solar cells built in the edges. All these aspects are in development now.

**carstenb** · 03-02-2015, 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwidman

In a jon boat? In a bow rider? Pontoon boat?

Please post a link. Anybody post a link. A link to a law requiring people in small boats to carry paper charts.

Happy to post a link - do you speak Danish? But yes, according to the law, any boat that is aweigh (meaning it is not attached to the ground in any way - anchor, lines etc) must carry paper charts. This includes, kayaks, rowboats etc etc. Taken literally (which the authorities can if they so decide) this also include Stand-up Paddlers or surfboards.

I've never heard of the maritime aurthorities going after someone on this - but an iinsurance company might if you sank an expensive yacht through poor navigation.

**carstenb** · 04-02-2015, 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ

What did your last slave die of? Google S-57

Mark

Mark

I fully agree - if you have EDCIS then you do not need paper charts and that is the official agreement

However damn few of us have an EDCIS system on our sailboat. I certainly don't.

And a chartplotter is not an EDCIS system

zboss · 04-02-2015, 00:07

Paper charts are dinosaurs. The immediate deployment of AIS ATON systems shows that even the Coast Guard knows this to be true.

What kind of situation would make paper charts essential? Not just useful but absolutely essential. Forget about "ease of use" for a minute and assume you don't have problems with zooming because you are being careful. I can think of only one thing that would make paper charts absolutely essential and that is the inability to make radio or visual contact with any other station after a lightning strike took out all of your navigational resources. The likelihood of any other type of event including flooding taking out all our navigational resources is practically non-existent.

If you can contact someone on radio or signal another vessel down, they can help escort you to safety.

**carstenb** · 04-02-2015, 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwidman

He made a statement (he's not the only one who made a similar statement). I'm asking for proof because I don't believe his statement is 100% accurate.

I don't have a link in english. I can tell you, that I've worked for the Danish Sailing Association and I'm a writer for the Danish sailing magazines. In the course of that, this question was raised and I did a lot of research, including asking the Danish Maritime Authority.

Their answer back was what I have quoted - any vessel that is aweigh must carry two independent of each other methods of navigation. at the present time, one of these must be paper charts (unless you have an EDCIS system - then you are exempt).

I do believe that this requirement stems from the IMO (not 100% sure on that), which means many other nations will also have those laws on the books

**StuM** · 04-02-2015, 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by phydeaux

Agree that they are nominally antique. But, what happens when you lose power? The GPS, Chartplotter. etc., are gone. If you've got charts, hand bearing compass, and parallels of some sort, you're OK along the coasts...

Pull the Garmin GPSMap 78SC and box of alkaline batteries out of the microwave?

**Adelie** · 04-02-2015, 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj

OK, so a single incident from 20yrs ago is all we have?

Did you even read this article? If so, are you still willing to use it as an example for your point?

While the Europeans may be concerned about the positional security of their non-existant satellite system, the US and Russia are making no similar plans. Perhaps the push to eLoran has more to do with not actually having a satellite system in place?

While it is in the realm of almost impossible for a cyber attack to actually bring down a satellite constellation, let's pretend it is imminent.

Do you really want to use your paper charts to navigate toward the end of civilization? Do you think there will even be any value in paper charts then? Do you think recreational boating will be your foremost concern?

In hindsight, don't you think that cyber attack line of reasoning against electronic charting is kind of silly?

Mark

Yes I read it and several others too. Nice synopsis of the report so I can tell you too read it. You asked for an example so I got you one. The fact that it is 20yr old is irrelevant, it meets the criteria you established. It wasn't my point, it was somebody else's, but you seemed to be having trouble doing the google search on your own so I thought I'd help out.

You brought up the autopilot not being bright enough to realize the GPS was giving faulty info but hey they've fixed that by now surely. On the other hand my take-away is that no one checked the results for 34hr. No alternative means of navigation was employed on a $100M vessel with several thousand people aboard.

Several years ago some Brits ran one of their nuke subs aground. That was basic inattention.

Two years ago the USS Guardian ran aground on a reef in a marine reserve and had to be broken up in place to avoid doing more damage. That one was traced back to faulty maps that they knew were faulty.

About 4yr ago an Air France plane went down in the Atlantic. Turned out the plane stalled at 41,000' and the pilot did not perform the correct recovery procedure which would have arrested the decent in 100-200'.

On a 737 in Brazil the captain made an assumption about where the decimal was in entering course info into the flight computer. The copilot copied the captain rather than checking the flight plan and independently entering the info on his side of the cockpit. The plane crashed and in the jungle when it ran out of fuel.

In 1993 a NW airline jet landed in the wrong city 200 mi from where they were supposed to be. Every person on the jet except the pilots knew they were going to the wrong place because a map with the planes position was being projected on a screen in the cabin.

Several years ago a yacht went aground on Flinders Isl. because the relied on GPS accuracy and their rounding the Island happened to coincide with a period of poor satellite geometry which decreased position accuracy.

The Aegean ran aground on the a coronado Islands several years ago with the loss of all hands. Turns out the islands don't show if the chart plotter is zoomed out.

What's the common thread here? Over reliance on a single technology leading to loss of skills and complacency about checking its results by other means.

As far as the Europeans go they are pursuing Galileo because they don't want want to be dependent on a foreign power for the service. And the are
Continuing and upgrading LORAN because the understand the several vulnerabilities a space based system faces. No one knows what backups the Russians and Chinese have. The US dumped LORAN in a cost saving move by a department that had no vested interest in maintaining a backup for use in case the system run by a different department failed. That's internecine politics at work not a rational assessment of risks and alternatives.

If the world comes to a technological end I will happily use paper charts to navigate my way home. If you want to curl up and die in place because the world has just become to difficult a place without all the electronic goodies, feel free to do so.

Finally I don't think considering the cyber attack line of reasoning is silly, I think you are silly for thinking the system is invulnerable enough that you don't need to even consider an alternative as a backup.

Adelie

**Adelie** · 04-02-2015, 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by zboss

Paper charts are dinosaurs. The immediate deployment of AIS ATON systems shows that even the Coast Guard knows this to be true.

What kind of situation would make paper charts essential? Not just useful but absolutely essential. Forget about "ease of use" for a minute and assume you don't have problems with zooming because you are being careful. I can think of only one thing that would make paper charts absolutely essential and that is the inability to make radio or visual contact with any other station after a lightning strike took out all of your navigational resources. The likelihood of any other type of event including flooding taking out all our navigational resources is practically non-existent.

If you can contact someone on radio or signal another vessel down, they can help escort you to safety.

I can think of several more situations:

A). Direct hit of major Coronal Mass Ejection from Sun. Would wipe out most satellites in orbit.
B). War with a country that had ASAT capability.
C). A cyber attack that got into the GPS control system.
D).

Adelie