Are Canadian Charts required in Georgian Bay/North Channel upper Lake Huron/Ontario?

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by RobinScurr

I think the answer as to if you MUST carry Canadian charts is "it depends." I believe IF you are a USCG documented vessel (not sure is state titled counts) AND (this is important) you comply FULLY with US safety requirements (lights, placards, fire extinguishers, life jackets, etc) THEN you DO NOT have to comply with Canadian requirements. IF you fail to comply with ANY US requirement (And the Canadian folks know the requirements) THEN you must comply with ALL Canadian laws, which includes MUCH MORE than charts. More fire extinguishers, more/different flares, have a dingy? Then a small vessel safety kit (Google it and see what's in it), etc.

The required equipment varies based on the length of your boat. Suffice it to say, their list i much longer than ours!

Someone with a local chapter of the US Power Squadron can help a lot with this. I have taken Piloting/Adv Piloting in the Detroit area and the teacher's are regular North Channel cruisers. I also hold the Canadian safe boater card, etc, from a USPS class... that class is where I learned the above info.

Just to note that if you are in foreign or international waters you should have full national registration, comply with you national regulations and local laws, that is standard everywhere. Think it unlikely that you will get hassles on the great lakes for only having state registration but with the problems around trade and refugees at the moment that could change!

[RobinScurr]

For reference, the required equipment list for a vessel falling under Canadian rules is found at:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents...ty/TP-511e.pdf

Most people will be interested with pages 16 & 17. The list is extensive and quite specific. For instance, a horseshoe-type throwable is not acceptable - it must be a ring. Radar reflector, 12 flares, and if your vessel is 40'+, an axe and 2 buckets of a minimum size!

(Trivia question for the group - why require an axe?!?)

This document is the one that the test for the Pleasure Craft Operator Card (PCOC) is based.

[hellosailor]

I would be surprised if a visiting foreign pleasure craft would or could be required to carry Canadian charts of any type. Emphasis on VISITING FOREIGN PLEASURE craft.

That has long been resolved as the Portuguese, Aussies, and Kiwis all got their fifteen seconds of fame before finally conceding that foreign craft must comply with the safety rules of their flag state--and not the state they were visiting, in general.

A Canadian rule written and addressed to *Canadian* boaters in their home waters, is simply not relevant to foreigners. For the same reason that the USCG doesn't go counting flares and expiry dates on visiting Canadian flagged vessels.

Whether it is prudent to sail in foreign waters without the best charts you can get...that's a whole other question.

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

Well here's the rules...
Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995
The only exemption for Pleasure Craft is that they don't need "an illustrated table of life-saving signals for use by ships and persons in distress" ... not much of a break.


Fortunately,enforcement of this takes a practical approach.

I think those are the commercial rules.

There is a separate publication to guide recreational boaters published by transport Canada. Since they are the enforcement agency I would go with them.

The other thing is that there is a big cultural difference. The USCG seams to be very keen on rules. Canadians are much more into safety. They will look at you, your boat and all your equipment. If they think you are safe but breaking a rule at worst you will get a ticket telling you to comply and possibly a small fine. If they think you are unsafe they will want to do what it takes to get you safely home. that could be taking you into port and making you fly there!

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

I would be surprised if a visiting foreign pleasure craft would or could be required to carry Canadian charts of any type. Emphasis on VISITING FOREIGN PLEASURE craft.

That has long been resolved as the Portuguese, Aussies, and Kiwis all got their fifteen seconds of fame before finally conceding that foreign craft must comply with the safety rules of their flag state--and not the state they were visiting, in general.

A Canadian rule written and addressed to *Canadian* boaters in their home waters, is simply not relevant to foreigners. For the same reason that the USCG doesn't go counting flares and expiry dates on visiting Canadian flagged vessels.

Whether it is prudent to sail in foreign waters without the best charts you can get...that's a whole other question.

All true but IMO also states 'comply with local laws'. Generally that means flag state covers the boat and equipment but local law covers the crews actions. If foreign authorities consider you are navigating unsafely I suspect they can take action regardless of whether you are complying with your flag state rules. To be sure about any of this you would need a maritime lawyer which is why I suggested the op look at the transport Canada guide to see what is expected for local boats to be safe.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

I think those are the commercial rules.

There is a separate publication to guide recreational boaters published by transport Canada. Since they are the enforcement agency I would go with them.

Do you mean this, that was posted above?
https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents...ty/TP-511e.pdf

I was just quoting the regulation for charts that was linked in that publication ... Technically it applies to Pleasure Craft too.

You can search the CHS website too, and they will say more than once that Garmin, Navionics, C-Map etc do NOT meet the requirements for Canadian charts. It's why my plotter puts up a "Not to be used for navigation" disclaimer every time I turn it on.

But as everyone is saying ... it's just a technicality ... as long as you are navigating safely, nobody cares.

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

Do you mean this, that was posted above?
https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents...ty/TP-511e.pdf

I was just quoting the regulation for charts that was linked in that publication ... Technically it applies to Pleasure Craft too.

You can search the CHS website too, and they will say more than once that Garmin, Navionics, C-Map etc do NOT meet the requirements for Canadian charts.

But as everyone is saying ... it's just a technicality ... as long as you are navigating safely, nobody cares.

Yes, thats the one. I agree that if you get into the details of the shipping rules it does suggest that electronic pleasure charts do not comply. So technically it should be a BBS electronic chart or paper chart from a national chart authority. It is also why you have the 'not to be used for navigation' warning displayed every time you start up the chart plotter. Interesting note though, if you fire up a C-map chart on a tablet it does NOT warn you not to use it for navigation! (at least not on mine). However it also includes use of electronic navigation equipment under 'what you should know before heading out'. I think that means be able to use the GPS, AIS etc as a source of data to plot on the chart. But if they really did not want a chart plotter to be considered as a chart device you would think they would at least add a note here to make it clear since it is practically universal on pleasure craft.

[GuyFromTheNorth]

To the OP. I've sailed the North Channel specifically for 4 years now. It's an amazing place, the further West you go the less traffic you see (not that there's much on the East). I went 2 years before I even saw my first "other boat" show up while I was anchored. Most of the islands have a sand beach on the lee side and like I said, no one there.

Highly recommend charts, electronic and paper if you can get them. Not sure if it was mentioned, but in Canada from what I've heard the Coast Guard has alot less power. They can board your vessel, but only with cause to believe something illeagal is being done, they can't just randomly search you. Now, if you're not from Canada I don't know if that is still true...

The Ontario Government (I work for them) has a website (www.ontario.ca) and if you search Maps you can click a link that says "create a topographic map". You can make and print maps directly from there, but much more importantly are the incredibly detailed overhead imagery layers. They are much clearer than google earth in most spots. Here's a direct link:

https://www.gisapplication.lrc.gov.o...M&locale=en-US

Find whatever anchorage, strait, or shoal you want to check out, navigate to it on that map, and turn on the map layer for the imagery and turn off the topograhic layer. The more you zoom in the more clear it becomes. I do this and print them or save the image to my phone for all island and achorages, also reefs and shoals I will be sailing by.

Go check out the SE side of Great Duck Island south of Manitoulin on the North end of Huron (the only big island there), you can see 2 shipwrecks and even see where my anchor rode stirred up the bottom last time I anchored there. Yep, that detailed, and FREE.

https://postimg.cc/image/q06mjrxxz/

[Gary Mc]

I sail on Lake Huron and have visited the North Channel and GB many times. Go with what Mike says in Post 15.

The Canadian Coast Guard is very friendly and will not be asking to see paper charts unless you have given them a major reason to check your boat.

I have a 7 inch Garmin Chart Plotter with the Blue charts, and several strip charts that are very useful on Georgian Bay. That and one of the newer cruising guides are all you would need, in my opinion. Well good seamanship would be helpful.

I spent years finding little, out of the way places, and keeping them secret. Then 3-4 years ago I saw a new cruising guide that had them all listed! Not happy LOL.

One overall chart of the entire area I always to see where to go next and to plot a course..

Good luck and enjoy.

[Zugbug99]

Many thanks to all who responded to the post. Great information from many seasoned veterans of the North Passage and Georgian Bay.
I ordered Canadian charts today. I’m off to Home Depot to buy an axe for the trip.
Should be a great trip. The pictures and descriptions are wonderful! Best wishes to all!

[hamburking]

You are likely fine with what you have. I use Richardson's (Lake Ontario), supplemented with a few selected paper charts. Navionics on my android phone.

The big paper charts are still very useful. General charts are great for planning. Detail charts are excellent in areas with many islands. You won't regret having the paper charts aboard.

Chartplotter or laptop, the screen is just not very big. They are great for seeing exactly where you are, but not so great for getting the big picture. And of course, paper charts need no electricity and never fail because of a software, firmware, or battery problem. There is something just so "nautical" and comforting in a paper chart.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Zugbug99

I ordered Canadian charts today. I’m off to Home Depot to buy an axe for the trip.

You do not need an axe unless you are a Canadian vessel over 12m.

[mottseng]

Originally Posted by Zugbug99

Many thanks to all who responded to the post. Great information from many seasoned veterans of the North Passage and Georgian Bay.
I ordered Canadian charts today. I’m off to Home Depot to buy an axe for the trip.
Should be a great trip. The pictures and descriptions are wonderful! Best wishes to all!

Keep us posted on your experience. If you happen to make it to southern GB ring me up. My MMSI is 316034944. Can meet up at an anchorage somewhere.

[Zugbug99]

Originally Posted by mottseng

Keep us posted on your experience. If you happen to make it to southern GB ring me up. My MMSI is 316034944. Can meet up at an anchorage somewhere.

Thanks! I’ll keep in touch and post about my experience! My MMSI is 338320127. I’m going to get one of the Standard Horizon GX2200 VHF radios with built in GPS and 2 AIS receivers prior to leaving. I would love to stop by and say hello!

[Zugbug99]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

You do not need an axe unless you are a Canadian vessel over 12m.

Thanks! It was kind of tongue in cheek. But as wild as the country is, probably a good idea to be prepared in as many ways possible.

Best wishes and fair winds!