Are Canadian Charts required in Georgian Bay/North Channel upper Lake Huron/Ontario?

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Zugbug99

I didn’t get a response in the Great Lakes Destination section, so I thought I would post here.

I’m in Saint Clair Shores MI planning a trip for Georgian Bay and the North Channel in upper Lake Huron/Ontario. I’m new to the area.

I hope to get some input from knowledgeable boaters of Lake Hurons Georgian Bay and North Channel navigational aids

Do I have to have Canadian paper charts with me?
I’ve heard locally answers range from absolutely yes to only if you want them

I have a older Richardson’s Lake Huron 4th ed, and a Waterway guide Great Lakes 2018

I’ll be using a Garmin GPSmap 820 and have the Canada Blue Chart g2 SD card of Feb 2014

Some articles I’m reading online indicate I can be fined by Canadian Coast Guard if I don’t have Canadian paper charts (probably about 20 charts at $20 each) at nauticalmind.com

I’m new to the area. Have a Nor’sea27 with a 4 foot draft. I’m a solo sailor.

As I don’t want to ground, and be a nusiance to others, I’ll buy the charts if required to have the paper version.

Nauticalmind.com (Toronto) offers an electronic version of 22 charts for $56.45 which is attractive. They are in BSBv3.0 format. They recommend OpenCPN to use. It’s unlikely these would integrate to Garmin. Again, unclear if paper charts are required

Thanks to all who responded!

We have sailed Georgian Bay (30,000 Islands area) and the North Channel of Lake Huron for many years.

Legal Requirements: All vessels must carry current CHS charts. An exception is that a rec boater does not need to carry charts if they are intimately familiar with the waters.

Of course if one grounds, sinks, and there is expensive environmental clean up, the claim that one was intimately familiar could go out the window. "If you were intimately familiar, why did you run aground on a marked shoal, were you not keeping proper watch?" (Either way you could be screwed.

Practical Requirements: As mentioned the eastern shore of Georgian Bay is commonly referred to as the 30,000 islands area. There are even more "islands" just under the surface of the water. You can have 300' of water under your keel where you are, and 2' just 50' ahead. This may be 5 miles offshore of the mainland.


The shoals are not nice soft sandbars that slow you to gentle stop, and you hop out and push off. This is all Precambrian Shield, granite and felspar, very unforgiving.

Therefore, it is not a matter of legal requirements and enforcement that should guide your decision. You should be considering, "What do I need to avoid going aground, sinking, and ruining my whole vacation".

What we used (including before and after GPS) was a Richardson's chart book. Though these clearly state, "Not to be used for navigation", this is a great tool that most rec boaters use to give the big picture, covers the entire area, and costs less.

It has the advantage that rocks in your path are marked regardless of zoom level (unlike an electronic chart on a plotter).

With the advent of GPS and chartplotters, we added that to our arsenal.

When sailing passages, we would mark our position on the Richardson's every half hour, in case of electronics loss, so we could estimate our current position from last known, and DR from there.


In my opinion, the least one should be equipped with to sail this area is as follows:

1. Compass.
2. Knotmeter.
3. Watch or clock.
4. Richardsons chart book.

(This will permit you to DR from anywhere to anywhere if all electronics should be lost.)


5. Dedicated Chartplotter.

This will enable you to maintain a constant fix on your position, which in many very large areas, is essential at all times, even in seemingly "open water". This is not a job to be left to mobile devices pretending to be chartplotters.


Luxury Navigation Equipment

A nice luxury, is to have mobile devices that can view / control the chartplotter, or run a separate electronic chart systems (we use Navionics) to assist route planning and to enable crew to view location, area, progress along the way, from any location on the boat (fair weather) or protected from the elements down below (less than fair).

Even with multiple redundant back-ups, one cannot rely on a mobile device for principle or general navigation. They are just not reliable enough, especially in poor weather while navigating shoals. One often doesn't have a choice, as in July / August, there is a risk of thunderstorms almost every day in the afternoon. (They come on ya fast, and leave ya fast.) ;-)


We have sailed a lot of places (though not everywhere), and feel this is the best sailing in North America (at least). It can be very challenging and rewarding. We have led a number of new cruisers through the North Channel via the Trailer Sailors Association. One exhuberant newbie (now a dear friend and well experienced sailor) asked, "Can you send me the GPS co-ordinates of any rocks we should be aware of". I responded that it would be way too time consuming, but yet still more efficient, if I sent them co-ordinates where rocks weren't. ;-)

Long story short, whatever you choose, in this area, you must know precisely where you are, at all times, without exception, such as to charge up an iPad, or go fetch another one when the one used shuts down due to battery exhaustion (fast while operating GPS), or overheating (any day it is in direct sunlight and it is about 25C (75F) outside, or cold weather shutdown, less than 5 C (45F) in the shade (yes this is certainly possible in July / August in the morning).

[Zugbug99]

Originally Posted by hamburking

You are likely fine with what you have. I use Richardson's (Lake Ontario), supplemented with a few selected paper charts. Navionics on my android phone.



The big paper charts are still very useful. General charts are great for planning. Detail charts are excellent in areas with many islands. You won't regret having the paper charts aboard.



Chartplotter or laptop, the screen is just not very big. They are great for seeing exactly where you are, but not so great for getting the big picture. And of course, paper charts need no electricity and never fail because of a software, firmware, or battery problem. There is something just so "nautical" and comforting in a paper chart.

Thank you for your reply! Your right, the paper charts help to look at the big picture and get a better prospective of the sailing waters!

[Zugbug99]

Thanks Gary! I ordered Canadian charts 2201, 2202, 2203, and 2204 for Georgian Bay. Any others you would recommend?
I’m still trying to figure out what charts to get for the North Channel from Detour passage to Little Current.

[Zugbug99]

Originally Posted by GuyFromTheNorth

To the OP. I've sailed the North Channel specifically for 4 years now. It's an amazing place, the further West you go the less traffic you see (not that there's much on the East). I went 2 years before I even saw my first "other boat" show up while I was anchored. Most of the islands have a sand beach on the lee side and like I said, no one there.



Highly recommend charts, electronic and paper if you can get them. Not sure if it was mentioned, but in Canada from what I've heard the Coast Guard has alot less power. They can board your vessel, but only with cause to believe something illeagal is being done, they can't just randomly search you. Now, if you're not from Canada I don't know if that is still true...



The Ontario Government (I work for them) has a website (www.ontario.ca) and if you search Maps you can click a link that says "create a topographic map". You can make and print maps directly from there, but much more importantly are the incredibly detailed overhead imagery layers. They are much clearer than google earth in most spots. Here's a direct link:



https://www.gisapplication.lrc.gov.o...M&locale=en-US



Find whatever anchorage, strait, or shoal you want to check out, navigate to it on that map, and turn on the map layer for the imagery and turn off the topograhic layer. The more you zoom in the more clear it becomes. I do this and print them or save the image to my phone for all island and achorages, also reefs and shoals I will be sailing by.



Go check out the SE side of Great Duck Island south of Manitoulin on the North end of Huron (the only big island there), you can see 2 shipwrecks and even see where my anchor rode stirred up the bottom last time I anchored there. Yep, that detailed, and FREE.



https://postimg.cc/image/q06mjrxxz/

Thank you for your great input! I can’t wait to see the beautiful sites the North Channel has to offer!

[Zugbug99]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

Yes, thats the one. I agree that if you get into the details of the shipping rules it does suggest that electronic pleasure charts do not comply. So technically it should be a BBS electronic chart or paper chart from a national chart authority. It is also why you have the 'not to be used for navigation' warning displayed every time you start up the chart plotter. Interesting note though, if you fire up a C-map chart on a tablet it does NOT warn you not to use it for navigation! (at least not on mine). However it also includes use of electronic navigation equipment under 'what you should know before heading out'. I think that means be able to use the GPS, AIS etc as a source of data to plot on the chart. But if they really did not want a chart plotter to be considered as a chart device you would think they would at least add a note here to make it clear since it is practically universal on pleasure craft.

Thanks for your reply!

[Zugbug99]

Originally Posted by DnA9413

I was curious and found a couple of online references:



The Future of Paper Charts



This reference says you must carry Canadian charts, but not specifically paper:



Nautical charts and services



And this official Canadian guide (see page 37) mentions both official paper and electronic maps as acceptable:



http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/...ty/TP-511e.pdf



Have fun,



Dan

Thanks Dan! I am going to get some paper charts to review and plan my course. I’ll use the Richardson’s and Garmin while I’m underway. I think the paper charts are helpful in giving a sense of security (maybe false) while cruising.
Best wishes!

[Zugbug99]

Originally Posted by RobinScurr

For reference, the required equipment list for a vessel falling under Canadian rules is found at:



https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents...ty/TP-511e.pdf



Most people will be interested with pages 16 & 17. The list is extensive and quite specific. For instance, a horseshoe-type throwable is not acceptable - it must be a ring. Radar reflector, 12 flares, and if your vessel is 40'+, an axe and 2 buckets of a minimum size!



(Trivia question for the group - why require an axe?!?)



This document is the one that the test for the Pleasure Craft Operator Card (PCOC) is based.

Thanks Robin! This is really an excellent guide!

[Zugbug99]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

We have sailed Georgian Bay (30,000 Islands area) and the North Channel of Lake Huron for many years.

Legal Requirements: All vessels must carry current CHS charts. An exception is that a rec boater does not need to carry charts if they are intimately familiar with the waters.

Of course if one grounds, sinks, and there is expensive environmental clean up, the claim that one was intimately familiar could go out the window. "If you were intimately familiar, why did you run aground on a marked shoal, were you not keeping proper watch?" (Either way you could be screwed.

Practical Requirements: As mentioned the eastern shore of Georgian Bay is commonly referred to as the 30,000 islands area. There are even more "islands" just under the surface of the water. You can have 300' of water under your keel where you are, and 2' just 50' ahead. This may be 5 miles offshore of the mainland.


The shoals are not nice soft sandbars that slow you to gentle stop, and you hop out and push off. This is all Precambrian Shield, granite and felspar, very unforgiving.

Therefore, it is not a matter of legal requirements and enforcement that should guide your decision. You should be considering, "What do I need to avoid going aground, sinking, and ruining my whole vacation".

What we used (including before and after GPS) was a Richardson's chart book. Though these clearly state, "Not to be used for navigation", this is a great tool that most rec boaters use to give the big picture, covers the entire area, and costs less.

It has the advantage that rocks in your path are marked regardless of zoom level (unlike an electronic chart on a plotter).

With the advent of GPS and chartplotters, we added that to our arsenal.

When sailing passages, we would mark our position on the Richardson's every half hour, in case of electronics loss, so we could estimate our current position from last known, and DR from there.


In my opinion, the least one should be equipped with to sail this area is as follows:

1. Compass.
2. Knotmeter.
3. Watch or clock.
4. Richardsons chart book.

(This will permit you to DR from anywhere to anywhere if all electronics should be lost.)


5. Dedicated Chartplotter.

This will enable you to maintain a constant fix on your position, which in many very large areas, is essential at all times, even in seemingly "open water". This is not a job to be left to mobile devices pretending to be chartplotters.


Luxury Navigation Equipment

A nice luxury, is to have mobile devices that can view / control the chartplotter, or run a separate electronic chart systems (we use Navionics) to assist route planning and to enable crew to view location, area, progress along the way, from any location on the boat (fair weather) or protected from the elements down below (less than fair).

Even with multiple redundant back-ups, one cannot rely on a mobile device for principle or general navigation. They are just not reliable enough, especially in poor weather while navigating shoals. One often doesn't have a choice, as in July / August, there is a risk of thunderstorms almost every day in the afternoon. (They come on ya fast, and leave ya fast.) ;-)


We have sailed a lot of places (though not everywhere), and feel this is the best sailing in North America (at least). It can be very challenging and rewarding. We have led a number of new cruisers through the North Channel via the Trailer Sailors Association. One exhuberant newbie (now a dear friend and well experienced sailor) asked, "Can you send me the GPS co-ordinates of any rocks we should be aware of". I responded that it would be way too time consuming, but yet still more efficient, if I sent them co-ordinates where rocks weren't. ;-)

Long story short, whatever you choose, in this area, you must know precisely where you are, at all times, without exception, such as to charge up an iPad, or go fetch another one when the one used shuts down due to battery exhaustion (fast while operating GPS), or overheating (any day it is in direct sunlight and it is about 25C (75F) outside, or cold weather shutdown, less than 5 C (45F) in the shade (yes this is certainly possible in July / August in the morning).

Thanks for your great advice! I appreciate getting input from experienced boaters/sailors who are familiar with the area and its challenges! Best wishes!

[Zugbug99]

Originally Posted by kazo

Anchorage Guides: North Channel and Georgian Bay Cruising Guides good info, I'm using 2013 edition and adding my 'private' holes where keel boats cannot go.

If you're interested send me a PM with your email address and I can send you a pdf.



I'm sailing GB for 9 years, mostly north side, the first two years just with paper maps then added a GPS , now I cannot believe I survived those two seasons without running into a shoal, covered rocks etc.

Thanks kazo! I’ll send a PM. I greatly appreciate your input!

[Kelkara]

You may find this link useful too:
Visitor Information - Transport Canada

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Zugbug99

Thanks! It was kind of tongue in cheek. But as wild as the country is, probably a good idea to be prepared in as many ways possible.

Best wishes and fair winds!

Extra beer for all the friendly locals is probably a better way to prepare. GB and the North Channel can be pretty social places at times. Some consider the NC remote, but to me it was pretty darn crowded through July and August. Mostly fun folks though, so easy to get into shore or cockpit parties.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Zugbug99

Thanks Gary! I ordered Canadian charts 2201, 2202, 2203, and 2204 for Georgian Bay. Any others you would recommend?
I’m still trying to figure out what charts to get for the North Channel from Detour passage to Little Current.

I use this tool when I’m trying to figure which charts cover which areas.

Canadian Hydrographic Service - Chart Index - Interactive Maps

[astokel]

We've just returned from a month in the North Channel and Georgian Bay. The old joke about using old charts because 'they don't move the rocks' doesn't apply because they do move the buoys.

We did it with a current Richardson's and a slightly out-of-date chart plotter map. We only hit one rock!

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by astokel

We've just returned from a month in the North Channel and Georgian Bay. The old joke about using old charts because 'they don't move the rocks' doesn't apply because they do move the buoys.

We did it with a current Richardson's and a slightly out-of-date chart plotter map. We only hit one rock!

How far had it moved ?

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by astokel

We've just returned from a month in the North Channel and Georgian Bay. The old joke about using old charts because 'they don't move the rocks' doesn't apply because they do move the buoys.

We did it with a current Richardson's and a slightly out-of-date chart plotter map. We only hit one rock!

Yea, everyone is supposed to keep their charts up to date with the CCG “Notice to “Mariners”. Few rec boaters do.

Around 2004 we were motoring in the small craft route just south of Byng Inlet, and all of a sudden, a market wasn’t where it was supposed to be. Stopped engines, got out the binoculars, and picked it up way, way off-shore. I guesss the water levels had dropped that there was insufficient depth to keep a minimum draft they try to maintain.

The rocks don’t move, but water levels do, and the nav aids may.