Ancient navigation

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Global warming was also university approved and reviewed scientific research. Later it was found to be driven mostly by university staff interested in receiving grants and holding on to their otherwise unjustified jobs.

I agree with you that facts can't beat religion, prejudice nor bad science. If this my attitude you resolve to label as prejudiced then I am OK with your label.

White Europeans apparently achieved quite a lot: flew to the moon, composed Symphony No. 9 in D minor, discovered Polynesia. Not to say other cultures did not achieve other things. If a Polynesian eats a German cruiser it does not make the whole nation cannibals.

We have been to Polynesia and we liked people there. We did not see any getting ready for a serious offshore passage nor were we offered any lessons in navigation. Quite odd, given their love for and skill in navigation.

Apparently, they keep it to themselves. It takes a genius like Lewis to dig it out against their will and make it known to the unprejudiced reader.

b.

Honestly it is difficult to know where to begin with this rather absurd post.

Firstly, the "White Europeans" didn't "discover" Polynesia! The freaking Polynesians did. They also had developed political entities extending across thousands of islands, particularly in the Kingdom of Tonga. Your Eurocentrism is more than a little off… in fact it is worse than that.

Your bizarre assertion that "we did did not see any getting ready for a serious offshore passage nor were we offered any lessons in navigation. Quite odd, given their love for and skill in navigation." is frankly bizarre. Was it a joke? Because if not you seem not to have noticed that the Europeans completely ANNIHILATED the local culture in Polynesia in a pretty systematic manner, for centuries, quite deliberately replacing it with European cultural structures, which is why most Polynesians worship a Judeo Christian tribal deity from the Middle East. Indeed I met PLENTY of ignorant, self important white western "missionaries" TO THIS DAY shoving their special brand of BS down the throats of the last remaining islanders supposedly yet to get the message.

Lewis managed to document the last few traditional navigators before their systems were completely overwhelmed by those of the West. And no, of course Polynesian navigation doesn't beat GPS. But is that really the point you are trying to make??? I just see what amounts to white eurocentric prejudice going on in your posts, here, and it's frankly not a pretty sight.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

They didn't discover Polynesia, it wasn't lost.

The word discovery is used when people originated from a far away place discover lands that were unknown to that culture and get back to report that discovery.

There were certainly many sailors that reached America brought by storms and the favorable current. That does not make it a discovery. To be discovered the sailors have to go there and to get back reporting the discovery.

In that sense many of the Polynesian Islands were not discovered by the Polynesians, for instance Easter Island, since they did not return to bring home that discovery.

That is the difference between exploration and migration and it relates with the concept of discovery.

[belle-isle]

I'm quite surprized at the tone some people use in this thread. The fact one culture did great things does not mean others did not. And you would think cruisers would know that. In fact, if we world travellers don't, then who will ? No wonder the world is becoming what it is if each person thinks he's superior to his neighbour !

In my opinion, Cook was a great navigator, cartographer and explorer, flying to the moon was a huge feat, and some pieces of classical music are simply outstanding. But so were the navigational skills of the Polynesians. And if we each learned from each other instead of scorning the other's knowledge and beliefs, the world would be a better place. On the other hand, it now seems more fashionable to pretend that it will be better by building walls rather than bridges...


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[boatman61]

Funny no one mentions the Portuguese who led the way.. hell.. they even discovered Australia but did not see any value and left it to the Brits to use as a Penal Colony.
Cookie was a follower of an established track over 100yrs later....

Portuguese discoveries (Portuguese: Descobrimentos portugueses) are the numerous territories and maritime routes discovered by the Portuguese as a result of their intensive maritime exploration during the 15th and 16th centuries. Portuguese sailors were at the vanguard of European overseas exploration, discovering and mapping the coasts of Africa, Canada, Asia and Brazil, in what became known as the Age of Discovery. Methodical expeditions started in 1419 along West Africa's coast under the sponsorship of prince Henry the Navigator, with Bartolomeu Dias reaching the Cape of Good Hope and entering the Indian Ocean in 1488. Ten years later, Vasco da Gama led the first fleet around Africa to India, arriving in Calicut and starting a maritime route from Portugal to India. Soon, after reaching Brazil, explorations proceed to southeast Asia, having reached Japan in 1542.

[rognvald]

" I just see what amounts to white eurocentric prejudice going on in your posts, here, and it's frankly not a pretty sight." Muckle


Muckle,
I think you have overstated your response to Polux and Barnakiel. Both have made factual, historic statements that have nothing to do with "Eurocentrism" but rather the History of Mankind. I know that it is quite fashionable today to bash Europeans worldwide(US, Canada, NZ, Oz, SA and Mother Europe) but if you are at all conversant with the recorded history of the world, the impact of European Man has been the greatest force in the advancement of Civilization in Art, Music, Philosophy, Science, Technology and Industry and if it were not for European Man, the world would appear much as it did before the Roman, Greek and Persian Empires brought Man from a hunter/gatherer existence to Civilization. In our sadly twisted PC world, a little learning is a dangerous thing.

[boatman61]

Yes Muckle.. the fact that advanced civilisations existed in India etc while our ancestors were painting themselves blue and living in caves is totally irrelevant to the argument..
Behave yourself..

[minaret]

Originally Posted by rognvald

" I just see what amounts to white eurocentric prejudice going on in your posts, here, and it's frankly not a pretty sight." Muckle


Muckle,
I think you have overstated your response to Polux and Barnakiel. Both have made factual, historic statements that have nothing to do with "Eurocentrism" but rather the History of Mankind. I know that it is quite fashionable today to bash Europeans worldwide(US, Canada, NZ, Oz, SA and Mother Europe) but if you are at all conversant with the recorded history of the world, the impact of European Man has been the greatest force in the advancement of Civilization in Art, Music, Philosophy, Science, Technology and Industry and if it were not for European Man, the world would appear much as it did before the Roman, Greek and Persian Empires brought Man from a hunter/gatherer existence to Civilization. In our sadly twisted PC world, a little learning is a dangerous thing.

Don't forget western europeans "advancement" in their favorite pastime, war.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by minaret

Don't forget western europeans "advancement" in their favorite pastime, war.

not forgetting helping those poor backward people with slavery and infectious diseases....

not all good..

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by rognvald

" I just see what amounts to white eurocentric prejudice going on in your posts, here, and it's frankly not a pretty sight." Muckle


Muckle,
I think you have overstated your response to Polux and Barnakiel. Both have made factual, historic statements that have nothing to do with "Eurocentrism" but rather the History of Mankind. I know that it is quite fashionable today to bash Europeans worldwide(US, Canada, NZ, Oz, SA and Mother Europe) but if you are at all conversant with the recorded history of the world, the impact of European Man has been the greatest force in the advancement of Civilization in Art, Music, Philosophy, Science, Technology and Industry and if it were not for European Man, the world would appear much as it did before the Roman, Greek and Persian Empires brought Man from a hunter/gatherer existence to Civilization. In our sadly twisted PC world, a little learning is a dangerous thing.

Given that you completely neglect, for example, Egypt, Mesopotamia, China and India in your apparent suggestion that I have little grasp of The History of Mankind (your caps) and your lionisation of "Western European Man" as being the sine qua non (and even more absurdly, originator!) of said civilised history, while all those you omit to mention were civilised in all the areas you mention long (so, several THOUSAND years) before Western (and especially Northern) European "men" had got out of the habit of running after elks and wearing rough sewn skins, I am pretty certain I can disregard this comment. But then, as you suggest, a little learning is indeed a dangerous thing. Here's a handy, interactive graphic timeline to help you out:

http://www.timemaps.com/history

[Polux]

Originally Posted by belle-isle

I'm quite surprized at the tone some people use in this thread. The fact one culture did great things does not mean others did not. And you would think cruisers would know that. In fact, if we world travellers don't, then who will ? No wonder the world is becoming what it is if each person thinks he's superior to his neighbour !

In my opinion, Cook was a great navigator, cartographer and explorer, flying to the moon was a huge feat, and some pieces of classical music are simply outstanding. But so were the navigational skills of the Polynesians. And if we each learned from each other instead of scorning the other's knowledge and beliefs, the world would be a better place. On the other hand, it now seems more fashionable to pretend that it will be better by building walls rather than bridges...

Cultural exchanges and cultural enrichment is another way to see discoveries and explorations. Not many know that a small country of traders and sailors (Phoenicia) with a small population give origin to the first alphabet from where many others, the Greek, Latin, Arabic, Hebrew, and the one we are using here were derived.

Iberia nations legate their own languages, that today are the official languages of 29 countries and native language of 720 million people. The British had done the same and today English is the official language of 64 countries and native language of 400 million people.

Regarding navigation Europe, as a whole, were the ones that mapped the world and discovered precise ways to navigate and to determine latitude and longitude. They were also the ones that developed top sailing and sailing ships till the days of motor ships. It was also them that lead the way regarding that transition that lead to modern ships.

Maybe you can point me to the great accomplishments of Polynesian culture, even regarding navigation and their contribute to the actual state of the art?

I do not wish to undermine the navigational talents of the Polynesian but referring to them on a global way like this is obviously doing the opposite on a ridiculous scale.

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

.. Polynesians ... were much better explorers and navigators than any Europeans up to that time, or even up to Cook's time.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by conachair

not forgetting helping those poor backward people with slavery and infectious diseases....

not all good..

As well as pollution, overpopulation, industrialization, and over use of resources. Definitely not all good.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by minaret

Don't forget western europeans "advancement" in their favorite pastime, war.

Yes of course. Even if war was not invented by Europeans and have been around since the beginning of humankind they bring great advancements to naval warfare building better and better bigger and bigger naval vessels that dominated the world since XV century till XX century.

Many times the advancements on man of war ship design were leading the improvement in sailboat design and later in motor ship design.

Mapping of the world was also a strategic naval advantage and it was the different European navies that mapped the world.

[FSMike]

For those who might be interested I have posted on the thread "The Hokule'a Circumnavigation" the schedule of ports that the catamaran Hokule'a will be visiting on the east coast mainland USA.

This circumnavigation is being done without such aids as GPS, sextants, or even a compass utilizing the ancient navigational methods of the pacific islanders.
Hokule'a started westabout from Hawaii in 2014. Their most recent port of call is Ft. Myers, Fl. with many visits in other ports along the way. Not bad for a crew that some say can't navigate.

If anyone wants to make comparisons I have to say that I would love to see Captain Cook and his crew paddling the Endeavour through the Okeechobee Waterway lol.

[boatman61]

Re the Phoenicians.. some do.. some do not.. personally I see little correlation between their script and the ancient Vedic script which became Classical Sanskrit around the beginning of the 2nd millennium BCE.. but then.. they were not in 'Europe' were they..

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by FSMike

For those who might be interested I have posted on the thread "The Hokule'a Circumnavigation" the schedule of ports that the catamaran Hokule'a will be visiting on the east coast mainland USA.

This circumnavigation is being done without such aids as GPS, sextants, or even a compass utilizing the ancient navigational methods of the pacific islanders.
Hokule'a started westabout from Hawaii in 2014. Their most recent port of call is Ft. Myers, Fl. with many visits in other ports along the way. Not bad for a crew that some say can't navigate.

If anyone wants to make comparisons I have to say that I would love to see Captain Cook and his crew paddling the Endeavour through the Okeechobee Waterway lol.

Thanks for this, Mike. I will be in Newport in June for the race (navigator/tactician), flying in via NYC, so will try to catch them! I'd like to see the owl critics on here navigate across a lake without GPS…