Yep - we dragged!

[jkleins]

We had two people reasonably close to us start moving but the harbormaster was on the spot getting them out of the fray so as not to hit other boats. I wouldn’t have wanted to be there on a weekend with a storm of any type. I felt pretty good about the holding we had and if we were there alone I wouldn’t have given it a second thought.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

You know, guys, we have to share anchorages, and I have to agree with the motor boater above, that 7:1 in crowded anchorages is ridiculous! If you think monohulls, because cats take up more, too, because of their beams, you need to cooperate. There are so many boaters, so many folks wanting to be on the water, that we all need to help each other to a safe anchorage at night, and that includes picking up some of that 7:1 scope, so that more vessels can fit in.

One time, we knew someone who had laid out 200 ft. in an anchorage, with a depth of about 20 ft. if memory serves, so he could fly back to the States and leave his wife safe aboard. It was ridiculous, but there it was. Today, with so many more cruisers, there would have been a problem.

Ann



Ann

Well..... maybe the rest of the world will start doing what us Channel Islanders do and set stern anchors as a rule???
Nah, probably won't happen.

[Training Wheels]

Hmmm, we cruised the Channel Islands for years and rarely set a stern anchor. I hate setting a stern anchor! Would rather anchor outside the small coves, in deeper water, on one hook.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Well..... maybe the rest of the world will start doing what us Channel Islanders do and set stern anchors as a rule???
Nah, probably won't happen.

Don, IIRC those channel island anchorages enjoy pretty consistent wind direction and very few thunderstorms or rapid frontal passages. In such conditions, bow and stern anchoring does work to shoehorn more boats into a small place. But many places do experience frequent rapid and strong wind shifts, and I'm sure you know that with the wind on the beam, b&s anchoring starts to have problems. Perhaps this is why the practice is frowned upon in most areas.

I seem to remember that some of the more crowded anchorages had the occasional bumps in the night even with b&s, for there were lots of differences in how that practice was actually carried . I watched one chap from the Long Beach YC anchor well out in the cove and then carry out a stern anchor on what must have been close to 300 feet of rope, weaving through the closer in boats and then depositing the anchor on the beach! Chaos ensued...

Jim

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

But many places do experience frequent rapid and strong wind shifts, and I'm sure you know that with the wind on the beam, b&s anchoring starts to have problems. Perhaps this is why the practice is frowned upon in most areas.

I seem to remember that some of the more crowded anchorages had the occasional bumps in the night even with b&s, for there were lots of differences in how that practice was actually carried . I watched one chap from the Long Beach YC anchor well out in the cove and then carry out a stern anchor on what must have been close to 300 feet of rope, weaving through the closer in boats and then depositing the anchor on the beach! Chaos ensued...

Jim

Ha! That could have been me my first time anchoring out there after having read all the scare stories of the need for proper scope! I used to let out about 10:1 or more, bow and stern, everywhere I went and I had a Danforth 20H on a 24' boat! And I STILL woke up a few times every night to check if I was dragging! That didn't last long though. I went diving one afternoon, anchored on an exposed part of coast with the wind coming up briskly. The boat was tugging pretty hard on the anchor line so I thought I'd better go check the anchor, convinced it MUST be deeply set given how much force (I thought) was on the rode. As I settled on the bottom I was surprised to see I was in a mix of sandy bottom and rock outcrops. I followed the chain along the bottom as it lay over the rocks until I found one link jammed in a rock and the big anchor reclining completely exposed and unset in a sand field.
The chain lazily yanked on the jammed link, but it was not in any imminent danger as I could see. Still I went back up and set about to move the boat, realizing that my little boat would never drag the anchor I had.

Actually we get our nightly reversals, some pretty breezy, but perhaps not as breezy as your areas.., however one night last summer a good breeze came up on the beam, pushing us toward a cliff. Had I been on one hook I would have been concerned. As it was, I got up and brought the stern rode up to the bow and let her swing to face the breeze, pulling on both rodes from the bow now, and I went back to bed.

But we do get our share of frowns from a few non-locals who come in and say, "Everybody's on two hooks? ARGHH!" They usually calm down though, and relax when they see they don't have to worry about anyone's swinging circle. When it's the accepted norm then there's little conflict.
I think I mentioned in an old post that we also get occasional tidal currents that as they enter a cove, well at least one for sure I know of, will apparently fan out to direct the boats in different directions, or try to. And if we were swinging on one hook we would not all be swinging the same way. On one occasion I was anchored next to a boat, perhaps 20 yards away, and in the dead calm of the morning his boat was straining the lines being pushed to port and mine was being pushed to starboard. Pretty odd stuff to see, so another reason that the 2 anchor habit is appealing 'roun these here parts.

[scarlet]

So, I hope this isn't a stupid question...

Would an anchor riding sail help a little to prevent drag? the ARS would keep swinging to a minimum right? so, wouldn't that put less "movement" on the anchor? I would think lots of swinging could easily "jiggle" an anchor free...

I don't know how heavy of winds you can use an anchor riding sail in, so maybe in the higher winds it isn't an option. But, just wondering if they do help a with drag...

[boatpoker]

20,000lb. boat, 55lb. Rocna, 150' chain.
Rarely anchor in more than 10' between Toronto and Bahamas.
We put out every inch there is room for and sleep well.

Worst time with this config. on this boat was 4 days anchor off Nyack on the Hudson in 8' of water with all 150' of chain out. We slept on the floor cause' that's where we were going to end up anyway if we had slept in the bed.

Forget all the scope formulas .... put out all you have if there is room.

[daletournier]

I never use two anchors. I feel that a properly sized modern design anchor deployed correctly with enough chain down is adequate, if you need two anchors i would be looking at why your primary system isnt adequate?

My concern with deploying more than just the one primary is the complexity of retrieval. Its rare but occasionally you need to leave in a hurry. Weather can unexpectedly change putting you on a lee shore quickly, waves can build fast and the once protected anchorange can suddenly become a dangerous situation. Being able to retrieve ground tackle quickly without problems enabling you to head out to sea is IMHO part of good seamanship.

Your primary anchor should be such that nothing more is needed in all but very, very bad conditions.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by scarlet

So, I hope this isn't a stupid question...

Would an anchor riding sail help a little to prevent drag? the ARS would keep swinging to a minimum right? so, wouldn't that put less "movement" on the anchor? I would think lots of swinging could easily "jiggle" an anchor free...

I don't know how heavy of winds you can use an anchor riding sail in, so maybe in the higher winds it isn't an option. But, just wondering if they do help a with drag...

Not a stupid question. I have not used an anchor riding sail, but I have seen and been on boats that sail themselves around in a good wind, and an ARS (set properly) probably helps those boats quite a bit. I would have to dive on an anchor while the boat is sailing back and forth, but I tend to think the ARS may have some effect on preventing the anchor from being walked by side to side pulls, for those boats that sail themselves at the end of the rode in big arcs. As far as dragging, or being jiggled free, as long as the scope doesn't change, and the bottom is of good sediment for holding, the anchor should keep resetting itself even if it is loosened up in its set. However I could also imagine that the resistance of dragging the chain around on the sea floor side to side, given enough scope would mean that the bow would be brought back around before the anchor itself ever became involved. Noelex and Panope, have you checked this phenomenon?
BTW, this thread may be of interest:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ork-16696.html

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by daletournier

...Your primary anchor should be such that nothing more is needed in all but very, very bad conditions.

So long as no one suggests we leave port with only one anchor! Sometimes it's got to be safer to ride out a storm in a safe anchorage; in that situation a second anchor deployed in the right direction until the storm passes can make life much more relaxing. No problem buoying and ditching an anchor (or two) if we must depart in a hurry - why mess around hauling it in if there is any risk? So long as we have several more aboard - I currently carry 4, 3 lengths of chain, and plenty rope. There are many areas where anything less would be foolhardy.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Noelex and Panope, have you checked this phenomenon?

Riding sails can be helpful and are certainly worth a try. It is boat specific, on some vessels they are not worth the trouble, especially as they do add some windage. On our old boat we experimented , but found little benefit.

The main effect is that by keeping the boat straight, the drag coefficient is kept low and there is less opportunity for the boat to build up momentum.

The swing itself does not usually create as much of an angle to the anchor rode as you would expect. There is an optical illusion that creates the impression that the boat is moving laterally relative to the anchor more than it is in reality. Thus, underwater the increased force from the swing can be very obvious with a marginal anchor creeping backwards in the gusts, but the chain does not move about horizontally very much. The actual lateral movement does not play much role in the tendency to drag.

Here is a Delta, gradually creeping backwards in the gusts. You can see the puffs of sand generated as the anchor moves:

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Here is a Delta, gradually creeping backwards in the gusts. You can see the puffs of sand generated as the anchor moves:

YES! I never dived on an anchor but I have Delta memories. The #$%^& things seemed to set but over time as monitored with my GPS you could see almost see the path they plowed. I started with a 55# ......it plowed so I thought a larger one was the answer and purchased/installed an 88#. It did the same thing as the smaller 55#. In each situation, the anchors were attached to my 5/16HT all chain rode.

No love for a Delta here!

[scarlet]

Thanks for your answers on the sail...

What about lowering your anchor bridle? I know when we were chartering catamarans.. the bridle system they had would be set so the "Y" was just below the surface... if you lengthened that, so it sat maybe 3-4' below the surface.. would that help?

And, also, some of the posters say "no" to setting another anchor, but haven't mentioned their version of a "second anchor". For example, Dale, (above) says he never sets 2 anchors incase he has to haul anchor and leave fast. that's a great point... But, what about using 2 anchors on the same rode. drop one anchor.... then attach a second anchor on the same rode, 10.. 20.. 30 feet behind that first anchor. (sorry, can't remember the official name for that kind of anchoring. )

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by scarlet

Thanks for your answers on the sail...

What about lowering your anchor bridle? I know when we were chartering catamarans.. the bridle system they had would be set so the "Y" was just below the surface... if you lengthened that, so it sat maybe 3-4' below the surface.. would that help?

And, also, some of the posters say "no" to setting another anchor, but haven't mentioned their version of a "second anchor". For example, Dale, (above) says he never sets 2 anchors incase he has to haul anchor and leave fast. that's a great point... But, what about using 2 anchors on the same rode. drop one anchor.... then attach a second anchor on the same rode, 10.. 20.. 30 feet behind that first anchor. (sorry, can't remember the official name for that kind of anchoring. )

But why? If you size your anchor correctly, use a new generation anchor, use the correct amount of scope (chain), dig it in well, attach a good snubber, why would you bother with a second anchor?

I've anchored out several thousand nights in a variety of conditions and one good anchor is enough. If we are talking hurricanes here we'll that's different BUT in general cruising which entails a variety of weather, why complicate it?

If you a concerned then buy one very oversized anchor.

[CaptFigmo]

What's better.?
Two anchors well spaced at 75' or one anchor at 150'?