"Sailing" on the hook

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

You can, it just takes more experience than you have...

What he means is that the sea state you get from a given wind speed does not correspond to the Beaufort scale, neither in the Med nor in other closed bodies of water like the Baltic. The Beaufort Scale is for ocean conditions.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by briblack

Our boat (46' center cockpit cutter), like almost all, seems to tack back and forth while anchored from the bow. back and forth, 30 to 40 degrees each way. it's uncomfortable, and it seems like it would greatly increase load on the ground tackle, and chafe. a riding sail is an idea to reduce this, but I very rarely see anyone trying to use one. other ideas?

You are right to be concerned about this. It's bad behavior, and can even be dangerous.

First you should understand WHY it happens. It's because the center of lateral resistance to wind is AHEAD of the center of lateral resistance in the water. So the wind tends to blow the bow off.

That's why adding lateral resistance to wind aft will help (riding sail, dinghy on davits, etc.), and works the best way if you can manage it. Obviously far easier on a ketch, but you can try running a storm jib up your backstay. Use a spare main halyard, hank the sail onto the backstay, and make off the tack of the sail with a short line to the chainplate. You can experiment with different places to run the sheet, but straight to the mast would be my first choice. I have done this on a previous boat and it works great. Our storm jib was a little to big, though, for this purpose, and caused some heeling. It might be worthwhile making up a sail for this purpose -- shouldn't be too expensive if you recycle an old small headsail. You probably don't need much area for this to be effective.


Another tactic is a spring line to your anchor rode. Just tie a line, like a long snubber, to the rode, let some rode out, and lead it to a midship cleat. By adjusting the relative lengths of spring and rode, you can adjust the angle you can lie to the wind. If you make the boat lie at a slight angle (maybe 20 - 30 degrees) to the wind, using such a spring line, it will be MUCH more stable.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

(snip) The Beaufort Scale is for ocean conditions.

Sorry DH, but I have to disagree, a force 8 wind is still a force 8 wind even if you are inshore.

There is even a set of guidelines for its use on land eg force 8 "Some twigs broken from trees. Cars veer on road. Progress on foot is seriously impeded".

It may not equate to a true force 8 seastate, that takes a long time and a long fetch to develop. But a decent seaman should be able to estimate windspeed aproximately to at least the nearest wind "force" even in the med or inshore without a windspeed indicator, at least during daylight.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Sorry DH, but I have to disagree, a force 8 wind is still a force 8 wind even if you are inshore. There is even a set of guidelines for its use on land. It may not equate to a force 8 sea, that takes a long time and a long fetch to develop, true. But a decent seaman should be able to estimate windspeed aproximately to at least the nearest wind "force" even in the med or inshore without a windspeed indicator.

It's a fairly pedantic point, I admit, but the Beaufort Scale is NOT primarily a measure of wind speed. It is "an empirical measure that relates wind speed to observed conditions at sea or on land" (per Wiki). What it tells you is what kind of sea state you can expect for given wind speed, and vice versa -- by looking at the sea, what is the wind force.

The UK Met Office says: "The Beaufort scale, which is used in Met Office marine forecasts, is an empirical measure for describing wind intensity based on observed sea conditions." http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/guide/we...beaufort-scale


The "observed conditions at sea" are different in a closed body of water like the Med, than in the ocean, so the whole system is not really applicable.

I do agree, of course, that you should be able to estimate the wind speed roughly without an anemometer, but you can't use the Beaufort system, which derives the general category of wind speed from sea state. You can EXPRESS what you observe in Beaufort Forces, of course, but this is not, strictly speaking, an application of the Beaufort system.

[Snowpetrel]

I can assure you DH that even well offshore the seastate and windforce do not march in perfect lockstep, usually (thankfully!) The waves are much smaller than the maximums quoted in the Beaufort scale (except for the lower forces) but swell often adds another layer of confusion to it all. None the less we still reliably used the sea's appearance to estimate windspeed for the Met office, even during all my trips backwards and forwards across the Mediterranean, through the North Sea, the English Channel and other similar areas. The visual cues pointed out in the Beaufort scale still are useful even in a less than fully developed seastate.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

I can assure you DH that even well offshore the seastate and windforce do not march in perfect lockstep, usually (thankfully!) The waves are much smaller than the maximums quoted in the Beaufort scale (except for the lower forces) but swell often adds another layer of confusion to it all. None the less we still reliably used the sea's appearance to estimate windspeed for the Met office, even during all my trips backwards and forwards across the Mediterranean, through the North Sea, the English Channel and other similar areas. The visual cues pointed out in the Beaufort scale still are useful even in a less than fully developed seastate.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Yes, I agree of course -- the sea states described in the Beaufort charts apply to FULLY DEVELOPED wave trains, developed over large fetch and long period of time. And I agree that you can recognize the signs of different Beaufort forces in other conditions.

But the sea states are really totally different in the Med and Baltic. First of all, the weather in both of these places is more like land weather, dominated by land effects (convection etc.) and with weather events coming and going over much shorter periods of time. So you rarely get the time which would be required for a real ocean sea state. Plus the wave forms and periods are different. I have learned (over three entire summers in the Baltic, and four in the Med) that the significant wave height is limited to what you would expect in one Beaufort Force less, than what you would have in the ocean, but that the wave periods are shorter and the seas are steeper, which means that from about F6, they are more jarring and uncomfortable.

They are really very different, and I actually agree with Kenomac's comment.

[Sandero]

Sea state is pretty complex when it involves wind shifts and wave trains of different hts and periods coming from various directions... and all complicated by current!

[Panope]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

You have the ultimate anti sailing at anchor device, drop that big Fjordford anchor down under the bow, but given panopes nice deep forefoot prehaps you don't sail about too much?

I'm still waiting to be 'caught' in heavy wind at anchor. Perhaps I'll just wait for a gale forecast and go to it! (The anchor video footage would be nice to have as well).

Previously when Panope had no-pilothouse and was Schooner rigged, she did not have a sailing problem. My gut feeling is that my modifications have added windage aft so maybe it is now even better. However, many of my better "theories" have proven incorrect. We'll just have to wait and see.

Steve

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Panope

I'm still waiting to be 'caught' in heavy wind at anchor. Perhaps I'll just wait for a gale forecast and go to it! (The anchor video footage would be nice to have as well).

Previously when Panope had no-pilothouse and was Schooner rigged, she did not have a sailing problem. My gut feeling is that my modifications have added windage aft so maybe it is now even better. However, many of my better "theories" have proven incorrect. We'll just have to wait and see.

Steve

Lucky guy!

If I had a euro for every time I've been caught in a squall at anchor, I could buy a new set of sails.

I actually don't mind being at anchor (compared to other variants) in bad weather, as long as you have shelter, and as long as you can deal with this problem. Assuming you've got a good anchor, well set, in a decent bottom, yawing at anchor and the resulting chafe and loads on the ground tackle is the main problem. What you don't have to deal with is bashing against a pontoon.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Sorry DH, but I have to disagree, a force 8 wind is still a force 8 wind even if you are inshore.

There is even a set of guidelines for its use on land eg force 8 "Some twigs broken from trees. Cars veer on road. Progress on foot is seriously impeded".

It may not equate to a true force 8 seastate, that takes a long time and a long fetch to develop. But a decent seaman should be able to estimate windspeed aproximately to at least the nearest wind "force" even in the med or inshore without a windspeed indicator, at least during daylight.

100% Correcto

In its original form it didn't even bother with sea state but simply used the amount of sail that a sailing man of war could carry to establish what the wind *force* was. This method allowed consistency in logbook entries which lead to them being useful to Admiralty met men ashore.

Since then a huge range of 'scales' have been developed.... varying from observation of crew 'F1 - crew bored ...... F9 - captain terrified', through the effect on drifters in the North Sea , the effect on the drinking sailor .. 'F5 -sailors leave beer garden and retire to lounge bar, ' to the other assorted land based ones ' chimney pots blown off, large trees uprooted'

The well known 'sea state card' is only one of many and as you say all the factors rarely come together at once. Those factors being wind force, time and fetch.

I'd go further than your last and say that an experienced seaman should be able to estimate windspeed aproximately to at least the nearest wind "force" ' at night as well....

Unfortunately many think that a day skipper course and a bit of book learning equals 'experience'.

[weavis]

A man with 30 years experience.

Having learned to do something one way and repeating the mistake for 30 years.

[El Pinguino]

Wasn't this thread something to do with anchoring?

Doubt you will ever find a 'fully developed sea state ' at anchor... unless you really have stuffed up somewhere.

I've had over 60 knots at the mast head ( the sensor blew away at 60... it got windier later ) and flat water ie less than 10cm sea while at anchor.

The Med is actually very similar to Bass Strait...... but bigger....
From many directions the wind will give you the sea but not the swell and when the wind goes away the sea can get very flat again very quickly. So yes , different to the 'ocean'.

Edit.. and yes I have spent a reasonable amount of time afloat in the Med in an 'interesting' variety of conditions.

[kawaboy]

Originally Posted by nitpik

1. Attach a line to the chain, maybe 10' out from the bow, like a snubber.
2. Lead that line down the side of your hull, and attach it to a cleat or whatever about 2/3 of the way aft.
3. Adjust that line to take some of the load, until you are riding comfortably.

It acts like a snubber, and, it holds the bow just enough off the wind that your boat will "sail" off to one side, and stay there. ....... at least in my experience.

+1

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by kawaboy

+1

Yes. Sounds very very viable. I will try this out next time sailing (at anchor).

Cheers,
b.

[desodave]

I've been following this thread with great interest as a relative newbie. I have a Hunter 38 with in-mast furling and it sails all over the place at anchor. I now understand many of the reasons why. A couple of questions. PNW coastal cruiser, lots of deep anchorages, 80ft chain 300ft total rode. My midship cleats are - well - dead midship - is tying off a "snubber" to them too far forward? Also, should I try to tie off the other end to the rope part of the rode or go much longer than 10ft to a chain hook? Can see the snubber line getting ( too) long and/or the angle to the wind getting too "square". Anchor sailing just irritating at lower winds in solitary anchorages but of concern at 20+ in populated ones. Thanks for any assistance