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Delfin · 23-10-2013, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I have been reading but more than that I also have worked with a lot of steel (more tonnage than all the recreational yacht anchors in the World) and have stated my preferences in a non snarky way. Let's keep this about facts and earnestly held opinions.

Actually, if you read my post I was responding to Newt, not you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

No one is saying it is impossible to make an anchor shank that won't bend. It's easy to do if money is no object.

Well, it can't be that tough or that prohibitively expensive, otherwise companies like Manson, Rocna, Fortress or Sarca would be making exactly that product and apparently doing well enough to stay in business for quite awhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

In all these discussions I have not heard of any shanks breaking. If there is field data on that then we have a real problem to discuss. I think shank ultimate failure should be so rare as to be virtually nonexistent.

Quite so, which should be further evidence that robust anchors like those mentioned don't break, so as a real world problem is essentially non existent. Bending, different story. So, it really is a simple choice to favor strength and elasticity over less strength, and I am not criticizing your apparent preference for an anchor less robust.

Delfin · 23-10-2013, 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

This is an over simplification of my opinion at best and mischaracterizes what I said. Please don't paraphrase something when quoting exactly is so easy.

Apologies. I thought when you said

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Good question but I think your hypothetical is unlikely to be possible in the real world. Bending can be used as a fuse to release loading without ultimate failure. So my answer is I definitely want it to bend. After it bends then the loads on the rest of the anchor go way down. The lever arm loses its moment and the "stuck" anchor is much less likely to fail. Plus if it is not high test steel or alloy the likelihood is it could be straightened without breaking it off. I would only use higher test steel if to increase the ultimate failure withstand in the worst possible case such as right angle load. I care little to nothing about bending. Bending is always better than breaking so why risk it?

that you meant you would want a bendable anchor since after it's bent "the loads on the rest of the anchor go way down", which sounds like a virtue that favors anchors that bend.

**Coops** · 23-10-2013, 16:10

Quote by Delfin.

"Well, it can't be that tough or that prohibitively expensive, otherwise companies like Manson, Rocna, Fortress or Sarca would be making exactly that product and apparently doing well enough to stay in business for quite awhile."

I am taking a leap here and guessing that you meant to add the word not in there.(before the be). If that is so does this statement mean that none of those four named anchors can be bent?

Coops.

Delfin · 23-10-2013, 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coops

Quote by Delfin.

"Well, it can't be that tough or that prohibitively expensive, otherwise companies like Manson, Rocna, Fortress or Sarca would be making exactly that product and apparently doing well enough to stay in business for quite awhile."

I am taking a leap here and guessing that you meant to add the word not in there.(before the be). If that is so does this statement mean that none of those four named anchors can be bent?

Coops.

Quite correct, and thank you for noting the missing qualifier of "not".

And no it doesn't mean that the anchors mentioned can't bend. What it means is that it is not prohibitively expensive to make an anchor that "won't bend" to quote transmitterdan in the actual world of anchoring. I don't know of a case where a Sarca Excel has bent, including as I recall in the test done by Practical Sailor. I've yet to see a bent Manson Supreme shank, although we have the picture of the bent mild steel fluke above. Maybe there is one, I just haven't seen that. Same with the Rocna with the bisalloy shanks. Fortress shanks have bent, it is true, but the technical trade off is very light weight, and it does seem to take quite a lot to bend them compared to mild steel.

So, no, I am not saying that any metal piece cannot be bent, but I've yet to see A514 steel shanks on an anchor bend, so as a practical matter one would think the point is made that it can't be that expensive to produce and sell them.

transmitterdan · 23-10-2013, 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delfin

Apologies. I thought when you said

that you meant you would want a bendable anchor since after it's bent "the loads on the rest of the anchor go way down", which sounds like a virtue that favors anchors that bend.

I some cases I do but you left out the prior context. I want it to bend when the anchor is trapped and cannot turn during a wind shift before it breaks out and let's go. By bending the odds of breaking out are greatly reduced IMO. And I want it to bend way before it breaks the shank or some other component. I'm not advocating for wet noodle shanks as you seem to suggest. IMO shank bending is so rare as to be not a thing to beat up manufacturers with. Manufacturers will provide sufficiently stiff shanks if for no other reason than to avoid customer complaints and returns. They don't need us telling them how they got it wrong.

Let me ask you a hypothetical. Would you rather have your boat washed up on a lee shore with a straight shank anchor or still anchored after a major blow only to weigh anchor and find a bent shank? Please try to stick to these two possibilities as I believe it is a genuinely real scenario with much greater than zero probability. Obviously I would prefer to remain safely anchored and then weigh anchor and find it straight. To suggest otherwise is mischaracterizing my point.

downunder · 23-10-2013, 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

This ridiculous obsession with shank bending is pushing anchor makers the wrong way. When the stuff hits the fan it's ultimate failure we should care about. Bending but not breaking should be considered a good thing. Anybody that bends a shank in a blow but doesn't break it should write nice letters to the manufacturer.

Hardly obsession after the ROCNA change of metal situation. Important knowledge.

Yes shank strength is part of the overall package and I for one would preference a non bendy shank in my anchor selection.

There is some good and interesting information surfacing in this thread. Seems to have attracted and aligned many mods and so I hope they will not shut it down as was done in the SARCA thread.

Cheers

Delfin · 23-10-2013, 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Let me ask you a hypothetical. Would you rather have your boat washed up on a lee shore with a straight shank anchor or still anchored after a major blow only to weigh anchor and find a bent shank? Please try to stick to these two possibilities as I believe it is a genuinely real scenario with much greater than zero probability. Obviously I would prefer to remain safely anchored and then weigh anchor and find it straight. To suggest otherwise is mischaracterizing my point.

Given that I have a properly sized third generation anchor that is deployed properly snubbed with appropriate scope, what I would prefer is what I have designed my ground tackle to do - anchor the boat without bending or dragging. That seems to be your choice as well, but your two options of boat death or a bent anchor shaft is specious, and hardly defines the universe of options. Anchors exist that never seem to bend. They all seem to have one characteristic - they have HT shanks. Although you say you'd prefer not to have your anchor bend, you keep offering a bendable anchor as the only practicable option for safe anchoring, which it clearly is not.

Delfin · 23-10-2013, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by downunder

Hardly obsession after the ROCNA change of metal situation. Important knowledge.

Yes shank strength is part of the overall package and I for one would preference a non bendy shank in my anchor selection.

Cheers

Just to put this conversation into perspective, my personal opinion is that the best anchor available today is one I don't own - the Sarca Excel. It has a Bisalloy 80 shank that I am pretty sure could not be bent under even extreme usage and that feature costs $264 more than an equivalent 16kg Mantus.

Hmm, boat value $100,000, additional anchor cost $264. Is that a hard choice?

Now that doesn't mean that the Mantus isn't a great anchor and a great value. It no doubt is, and under 99.99% of situations will perform splendidly. And once they change the shaft to A514, it will perform even more splendidly. But if I'm anchoring my boat and given that once an anchor shaft bends it just isn't going to have the holding power of one without a bent shank (regardless of theories otherwise), one's decision is whether $264 is worth the piece of mind of having about as bullet proof a piece of ground tackle as one can buy. Clearly not for some, clearly so for others.

For those not blessed with living in MacKay, Queensland, the cost would be more, or you'll just have to settle for something else or wait for the Mantus upgrade.

colemj · 23-10-2013, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Let me ask you a hypothetical. Would you rather have your boat washed up on a lee shore with a straight shank anchor or still anchored after a major blow only to weigh anchor and find a bent shank?

I'm sorry, but that is a non-sensical deflection and an invalid point of argument. You force a choice between two arbitrary scenarios that have no foundation.

Let me ask you a hypothetical - would you rather have your boat washed up on a lee shore with a bent shank or still anchored after a major blow only to weigh anchor and find a straight shank?

That question is equally as valid as the one you asked.

Not choosing a side - and realize I am adding nothing to the discussion here - but illogical arguments really get to me.

Mark

transmitterdan · 23-10-2013, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj

I'm sorry, but that is a non-sensical deflection and an invalid point of argument. You force a choice between two arbitrary scenarios that have no foundation.

Let me ask you a hypothetical - would you rather have your boat washed up on a lee shore with a bent shank or still anchored after a major blow only to weigh anchor and find a straight shank?

That question is equally as valid as the one you asked.

Not choosing a side - and realize I am adding nothing to the discussion here - but illogical arguments really get to me.

Mark

Mark,

Thanks for the reply but I respectfully disagree. There are many cases where a thing can be too stiff and by refusing to bend it does something much worse. I agree with you that your reversal of the scenario makes no sense. But my original proposition can definitely happen and is a valid scenario.

colemj · 23-10-2013, 17:10

Well, my reverse could equally happen and is valid also.

A bent shank will make many anchors roll-instable, which will cause them to pull out and not allow them to reset. An anchor with a straight shank that does pull out has a good fighting chance of resetting. An anchor with a bent shank has no chance at all.

Besides, an unbendable shank simply will not pull a well-set anchor out with a 90* load. Nothing "has" to give - you are making that up in your hypothetical.

Mark

Wanderlust · 23-10-2013, 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Mark,

Thanks for the reply but I respectfully disagree. There are many cases where a thing can be too stiff and by refusing to bend it does something much worse. I agree with you that your reversal of the scenario makes no sense. But my original proposition can definitely happen and is a valid scenario.

How about looking at it this way .......

For an anchor to reach sideways bending loads it would have to be snagged on something, or buried very deeply.

For the boat to be on the beach, the anchor must have released from whatever was snagging it (ignoring rode and other issues). Once released, which would you rather have down there to hold you? A bent anchor or a straight one?

sv-Mystique · 23-10-2013, 17:36

wow!
Typical of forums, everyone's an expert and most have ZERO first hand knowledge but still offer their point of view...

I meet Greg and the Mantus team at Annapolis and had a good long chat, by the way Greg, the anchor fit on the Jeanneau 43 just fine. Thanks for spending time with us.

I personally own a Rocna and have for the past 5 years. Another one of my sailing mates has a Mantus and we anchored out this past friday night going through all the boat bits purchased at the show.

A cold front pushed through with sustained winds of 23 knts with many, many gust over 30 knts. The whole ordeal last about 8 hours.

Neither one of us move an inch and both of us pulled up a Volkswagen size mud clod hanging on both hooks.

In short we both smiled dropping the hooks at the next anchorage Saturday.

JonJo · 23-10-2013, 17:54

On Rocna and history.

I need to be nice:

Rocna misrepresented what they were selling.

They had insisted that a specific strength of steel was essential, they 'inadvertently' used something much less and when found out prevaricated but in the end used a steel of a quality 'only' 10% less strong than they had been preaching for years. Anchors of the much less quality did seem to have a propensity to bend. Many people gave Peter Smith the benefit of the doubt over the 'misrepresentation' and he is quoted often as an anchor guru, despite the past history. Why is a well respected anchor guru saying that his anchor, of 15kg, needs a shank that will withstand a +400Kg side load but no-one bats an eyelid when a newbie comes on the scene with a shank whose strength is less than 200kg (but that in the fullness of time they will increase to about 250kg) for that same sized anchor, of 15kg. Compounded as the shank strength of 250kg is not dissimilar to the shanks that had a propensity to bend.

And why does it appear that the newbie is unable to quote shank strength (which they say is good enough - how on earth do they know - evidence suggests they actually have not calculated - why else not post the information?)

I might refer people to the video - it does seem to strongly suggest roll bar removal. Misrepresentation? I think roll bar removal wrong. I am happy to be proved wrong - so make a clear and unequivocal statement and then we can judge if I'm an idiot (why do I hear applause in the background) or this was an inadvertent mistake on the part of the newbie.

Jonathan