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Old 23-10-2013, 18:12   #241
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
For perspective, this is bog-normal daily anchoring conditions for many of us. I would expect our previous under-sized Delta to hold in this.

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Old 23-10-2013, 18:18   #242
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

We deal with many families that are often isolated and have been caught out many times from unexpected weather changes, some of these situations have been extreme.

For somone to make a statement that a bent shank is not critical as it poses no threat while anchored is absolutely ridiculas, during our field testing many of the anchors when reached their maximunm holding power did bend , as a result they turned and surfaced never to reset.

For those families in isolated situations with their children on board I will continue to make the strongest product possible, bisaloy is my choice of steel, it will bend, is not brittle, it is impact absorbent to make it clear for all to undestand, yes we will replace a bent anchor and if and when we do receive a bent Excel we will set about trying to plug another hole. and will continue to pursue the possibilty of improving the failure point to further make an anchor as indestructable as possible.


Over twenty years in the business feed back praising us for these efforts all the discussion in the world will never see Anchor Right Australia change its values, a well constructed anchor design using quality steel, if the cost is a problem then it is only your problem as it certainly is n't a problem for me.

Yes, the Sarca is mild steel and doesn't have the durability of bissaloy but they have oversize shanks compared to bissaloy to meet the commercial boat critical proof load tests, further to our commitment to quality we are looking at changing to bissaloy shanks.

This transition will take a couple of years to apply,but what the Sarca design proves is you don't need flimsy thin flukes ,knife blade shanks to make an anchor design work, so I stongly dispute much of the thin, thin discussion.

If the thin, thin is what it has to be to make your design work, then your discussions will always come back to what is being discussed now, redesign your anchor so as you can use robust thicker materials, making it safer for all.

Regards Rex.
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Old 23-10-2013, 18:18   #243
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sv-Mystique View Post
A cold front pushed through with sustained winds of 23 knts with many, many gust over 30 knts. The whole ordeal last about 8 hours.
For perspective, this is bog-normal daily anchoring conditions for many of us. I would expect our previous under-sized Delta to hold in this.

Mark
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Can we take this situation.

Middle of the night, wife with 2 toddlers. Anchorage was great, really well set anchor, motored in hard, but wind moves round and gets a bit strong making it uncomfortable, kids are whinegeing and crying - wife is flustered and narky.

Husband tries to lift anchor too quickly, it hold, yacht lifteb by small waves - snatch load. Shank bends (this is the scenario - with fictional variations for many bent anchors). So we now have husband with bent anchor on deck, windy, narky, panicky wife and by now, 2 screaming children.

Nearest marina, in the dark, he has never sailed at night - even though its only 10nm away. Change the anchor, who is going to mind the yacht when he puts his second anchor on? (does he have a second anchor). Use the spare shank, who is going to mind the yacht when he does that.

No the yacht will not be lost, but they may never go sailing as a family again. So its a disaster waiting to happen, unless the loss of someone from the sailing community is not a disaster.

Jonathan
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Old 23-10-2013, 18:22   #244
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

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Originally Posted by JonJo View Post
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sv-Mystique View Post
A cold front pushed through with sustained winds of 23 knts with many, many gust over 30 knts. The whole ordeal last about 8 hours.
For perspective, this is bog-normal daily anchoring conditions for many of us. I would expect our previous under-sized Delta to hold in this.

Mark
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Can we take this situation.

Middle of the night, wife with 2 toddlers. Anchorage was great, really well set anchor, motored in hard, but wind moves round and gets a bit strong making it uncomfortable, kids are whinegeing and crying - wife is flustered and narky.

Husband tries to lift anchor too quickly, it hold, yacht lifteb by small waves - snatch load. Shank bends (this is the scenario - with fictional variations for many bent anchors). So we now have husband with bent anchor on deck, windy, narky, panicky wife and by now, 2 screaming children.

Nearest marina, in the dark, he has never sailed at night - even though its only 10nm away. Change the anchor, who is going to mind the yacht when he puts his second anchor on? (does he have a second anchor). Use the spare shank, who is going to mind the yacht when he does that.

No the yacht will not be lost, but they may never go sailing as a family again. So its a disaster waiting to happen, unless the loss of someone from the sailing community is not a disaster.

Jonathan
And that has ever happened.....when?
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Old 23-10-2013, 18:26   #245
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

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Originally Posted by JonJo View Post
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sv-Mystique View Post
A cold front pushed through with sustained winds of 23 knts with many, many gust over 30 knts. The whole ordeal last about 8 hours.
For perspective, this is bog-normal daily anchoring conditions for many of us. I would expect our previous under-sized Delta to hold in this.

Mark
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Can we take this situation.

Middle of the night, wife with 2 toddlers. Anchorage was great, really well set anchor, motored in hard, but wind moves round and gets a bit strong making it uncomfortable, kids are whinegeing and crying - wife is flustered and narky.

Husband tries to lift anchor too quickly, it hold, yacht lifteb by small waves - snatch load. Shank bends (this is the scenario - with fictional variations for many bent anchors). So we now have husband with bent anchor on deck, windy, narky, panicky wife and by now, 2 screaming children.

Nearest marina, in the dark, he has never sailed at night - even though its only 10nm away. Change the anchor, who is going to mind the yacht when he puts his second anchor on? (does he have a second anchor). Use the spare shank, who is going to mind the yacht when he does that.

No the yacht will not be lost, but they may never go sailing as a family again. So its a disaster waiting to happen, unless the loss of someone from the sailing community is not a disaster.

Jonathan

I'm not sure why this is addressed to me, or what point or question it is asking?

Mark
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Old 23-10-2013, 18:26   #246
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SARCA mild steel bend

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Just to put this conversation into perspective, my personal opinion is that the best anchor available today is one I don't own - the Sarca Excel.
REALLY. what where you thinking ????

Sounds like you like bendy things also.

The Anchor Right Sarca are just as bendy as all the rest.
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Old 23-10-2013, 18:41   #247
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Re: SARCA mild steel bend

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
REALLY. what where you thinking ????

Sounds like you like bendy things also.

The Anchor Right Sarca are just as bendy as all the rest.
I suspect that when you walk across a field, you manage to step in every cow pie available.

The picture you post is of a Super Sarca, which has one feature in common with the Mantus. A mild steel shank, so thanks for helping make my point. By the way, your clue that it is a mild steel shank might be the really bright, really big lettering on the picture that says "MILD STEEL bend".
The Excel has a Bisalloy 80 shank. When you learn to tell the difference, get back to me. And if you can't tell the difference, what on earth are you posting on an anchor thread at all for?

p.s. in defense of the Super Sarca, you'll note the thickness of the mild steel shank. I have no idea what the bending force is that would bend that shank, but would humbly submit that it would be a great deal more than bending an A36 shaft with the thickness of the Mantus shank.
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Old 23-10-2013, 19:07   #248
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Re: SARCA mild steel bend

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
The Excel has a Bisalloy 80 shank. When you learn to tell the difference, get back to me.
Delta Knockoffs are just ok, I would never call them the best.

The Sarca Excel = Delta has the "Problem Bend" that causes them to drag slowly and push the seabed to the side, you know "Plow"
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Old 23-10-2013, 19:24   #249
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

My list of qualities that a BOW anchor should have includes one that is very important to me but I suspect is not so important for others (it is never discussed): The anchor as to LOOK GOOD. I am talking aesthetics.

And to my eye, the Mantus is just a bit to gangly looking. Sorta like a tall, skinny teenager. Hoop is too big, and yes the shank is a bit skinny looking.

For pure aesthetics, I'll take a Genuine Bruce or maybe a galvanized Spade. As it is, I settled on a second hand Manson Supreme. Stout and compact looking. I am not wild about the extra tall shank (accentuated by the unused slot).

Rocna - too angular.
Excel - nice but I don't like the name cut-outs in the fluke.
Boss - too wide.
CQR - not bad accept when the fluke is flopped over to one side.
Ultra - too shiny.
Delta - too angular.

Now, if we start talking about non-bow anchors, give me a 4X oversize Mantus (that would be 85lbs. for me) disassembled and in the bilge. Would make a hell of a storm anchor or temporary mooring. I would guess that the shank would be as resistant to bending as my 45 lb Supreme regardless of the grade of steel used.

Steve
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Old 23-10-2013, 19:39   #250
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

You are not alone it seems. We had a customer come into the shop complaining that the powder coating on his anchor had some chips in it after only two years. Wanted to know if we thought he should take it back to them as it was starting to look a bit untidy.

Takes all kinds and they are all out there.

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Old 23-10-2013, 19:39   #251
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Re: SARCA mild steel bend

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
Delta Knockoffs are just ok, I would never call them the best.

The Sarca Excel = Delta has the "Problem Bend" that causes them to drag slowly and push the seabed to the side, you know "Plow"
You're kidding, right?

Just curious, but the big red letters that say "Problem Bend" represents what exactly, and are based on???

If you're a fan of hoop, concave style anchors instead of a burying anchor like an Excel, Ultra or Spade, this video showing a balance beam comparison test between a combination of a Rocna and a Manson vs. a single Excel at half the weight is interesting.

sarca excel videos - Bing Videos

Having trouble seeing the 'problem bend' you mentioned in this video, what with the Excel being so deeply buried and all.
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Old 23-10-2013, 19:42   #252
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
My list of qualities that a BOW anchor should have includes one that is very important to me but I suspect is not so important for others (it is never discussed): The anchor as to LOOK GOOD. I am talking aesthetics.

And to my eye, the Mantus is just a bit to gangly looking. Sorta like a tall, skinny teenager. Hoop is too big, and yes the shank is a bit skinny looking.

For pure aesthetics, I'll take a Genuine Bruce or maybe a galvanized Spade. As it is, I settled on a second hand Manson Supreme. Stout and compact looking. I am not wild about the extra tall shank (accentuated by the unused slot).

Rocna - too angular.
Excel - nice but I don't like the name cut-outs in the fluke.
Boss - too wide.
CQR - not bad accept when the fluke is flopped over to one side.
Ultra - too shiny.
Delta - too angular.

Now, if we start talking about non-bow anchors, give me a 4X oversize Mantus (that would be 85lbs. for me) disassembled and in the bilge. Would make a hell of a storm anchor or temporary mooring. I would guess that the shank would be as resistant to bending as my 45 lb Supreme regardless of the grade of steel used.

Steve
Too shiny? My Ultra is too shiny? Now you've hurt my feelings.....
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Old 23-10-2013, 20:09   #253
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Or, perhaps you have not been reading, since strength and resistance to breaking are not mutually exclusive, but characteristic of the best anchor designs, as explained above.
Sorry I offended you Delfin, just trying to get you to lighten up. Please feel free to stand tall and noble on this hill. I read every word you write.
BTW- I have seen things pivot and come out of rock because they could not deform. The loads on a unplastic metal are greater ( from what I have learned in Search and Rescue anchors). (rock climbing anchors) Now some of the other anchor venders have come out with their metallurgy and stated that their steel is plastic at higher stresses. Sounds good to me. I do know that a lot of higher strength steel is less plastic, and has a tendency to be brittle. So I find your obsession with nonbendablity interesting. I do support the other Valiant Owner's thesis- that ultimate breaking strength is more important than deformation strength. But I, unlike you, have not seen actual situations where an anchor deforms, pops out and does not re- set resulting in the destruction of the yacht, so I can learn from your experience.
My anchor just seems to sit there, no matter what happens.
But I am always willing to learn (and read) what you have to say.
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Old 23-10-2013, 20:18   #254
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

I am sure Lynn P. does not want to get involved in such a thread, but I would be interested in knowing if any of those boats which were grounded in Mexico had bent shanks. Does anyone know?
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Old 23-10-2013, 20:30   #255
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

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Sorry I offended you Delfin, just trying to get you to lighten up. Please feel free to stand tall and noble on this hill. I read every word you write.
BTW- I have seen things pivot and come out of rock because they could not deform. The loads on a unplastic metal are greater ( from what I have learned in Search and Rescue anchors). (rock climbing anchors) Now some of the other anchor venders have come out with their metallurgy and stated that their steel is plastic at higher stresses. Sounds good to me. I do know that a lot of higher strength steel is less plastic, and has a tendency to be brittle. So I find your obsession with nonbendablity interesting. I do support the other Valiant Owner's thesis- that ultimate breaking strength is more important than deformation strength. But I, unlike you, have not seen actual situations where an anchor deforms, pops out and does not re- set resulting in the destruction of the yacht, so I can learn from your experience.
My anchor just seems to sit there, no matter what happens.
But I will defer to the experts.
No offense taken, I'm sure. You indicate that you find desirable in an anchor high ultimate tensile strength (break point) and high yield strength (deformation resistance). That would be an anchor with a HT shank like a Manson, Fortress, or Excel with the new Rocna almost, but not quite as good. If you want a perma anchor that is as good as any around and your budget allows, get an Ultra. What you don't want is an anchor with a shank that has the reverse characteristics - low UTS and Yield, which would be anchors with relatively thin shanks made of mild steel. Like the Mantus. Perhaps if you're committed to that design wait until they make their upgrade? It will be interesting what price differential between old and new Manti (plural of Mantus) anchors will be, since welding A514 is much more complicated to do right. Incidentally, the grade of A514 or equivalent steel appropriate for anchor shanks is very strong, quite elastic and not brittle.

And you're right, your anchor will just sit there. And it will only be when you really, really need it that you will look at your kids and wonder if your anchor is good enough. Until then, most any anchor is good enough.
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