In search of Anchoring/Mooring upgrade wisdom

[sailorchic34]

My old boat has a 4" hardwood Sampson post with brass bit. There is 1-1/2" of marine plywood below deck (two 3/4" epoxied and screwed to the solid deck and a really massive composite hardwood beam about 12" wide x 4" deep that's tabbed rather well to the hull sides, 8" below that. It works rather well and I never worry about it.

For anchors, if money is tight, get a 33# bruce, it will do you proud in anything short of a named storm. If you have funds get a new gen anchor. I have a Mantus and yes it holds far better then my old bruce ever did, but then the bruce never dragged either. The mantus sticks in the mud and sand very well and is sometimes hard to retreave if the winds had been blowing.

I might recommend a 35# mantus or rocna /mason. A 25# would work for your boat. But when the wind is howling, you'll sleep better with the 33#.

I like the mantus as it has more area per size then the equivalent rocna. The 44# rocna looks smaller then the 35# mantus. My 45# mantus is huge in comparison.

You will need a bow roller for single handing and you'll be glad you have one. Trying to haul an anchor up without one when the wind is up would be a pain.

[JPA Cate]

Hi, Teknishn,

The whole discussion of what anchor you *should* have could run to a number of pages.

However, for the muddy Chesapeake, the fluke type anchors do well. Here's what I think I'd do: give the smallest Danforth to the dinghy for its anchor (we anchor the dinghy to go diving, so it needs a reasonable anchor.) The middle sized one, I'd keep for a kedge, and possibly mount on the stern, with an additional roller. (An easily deployable stern hook is very useful under certain conditions.) Finally, the 22# one will do you well for your primary anchor for a while. We used a #20 lb HT Danforth for our Yankee 30, and it worked fine, with no failures from SF to So Cal, and Oahu and Kauai. Yes, it does have a well known failure mode, but, fwiw, in our 5 yrs. usage it wasn't a problem, and Jim was using it before I hove on the scene. However, if there is a great lot of shell where you anchor, your mileage might be different. Fortress anchors do well in the Chesapeake when adjusted for the soft mud.

The threads "Photos of Anchors Setting" and "Videos of Anchors Setting" may inform your final choice: ultimately, I think you will want a new generation anchor, but the Danforths do have a place, and do not all need to be ditched.

Ann

On edit: about the toerail. We used to shackle our spring lines to the toerail on our first Insatiable. It is another place where learning to make your own soft shackles will save the anodize on the toe rail, compared to using s/s shackles.

[Teknishn]

All, Thanks much for the great pearls of wisdom. FWIW, in my original post I was more concerned with modifications to the deck mooring systems than with anchors. As Ann has stated: "The whole discussion of what anchor you *should* have could run to a number of pages." (Which is actually an understatement).

With that being said, y'all have provided some valuable and useful input concerning anchors and have provided me with more food-for-thought (like maybe getting a second job just to buy a Rocna ). Still have to try and find that happy balance between what works, what works better, budget, and the never-ending battle of onboard storage.

Looking forward to the adventure!
Best,
Fleming

[Dockhead]

A couple of suggestions, use or throw away as you like, particularly since I don't know this particular boat, so some might not be relevant.

1. The samson post will require major surgery. HOWEVER, this is the most useful thing in the world you can have on the bow of any boat which is used heavily rather than just sitting in the marina. It will solve a world of problems. So I say go for it -- but be ready for major chopping, reglassing, etc. None of it rocket science, and you seem to be very handy, so I'm sure you can manage it. Make sure it is as strong as the rest of the boat structure -- as strong as Samson. Then your problems with belaying the anchor rode, snubbers, etc., are all solved You will find lots of other uses for a strong point at the bow, too. Every boat should have one.

2. As others have said -- if you plan to sleep on the hook, you will really want to do everything possible to try to arrange a bow roller and use some kind of new gen anchor. All of the new gen anchors are good, but you might look hard at the Spades, as they have no roll bars and will be easier to arrange a bow roller for. They are also available in aluminum which will be easier to deal with without a windlass, but beware that they don't hold as well. You need a certain amount of mass for an anchor to work really well. Keep a Fortress (not Danforth) for a kedge. Use all chain for your main bower anchor, and rope with a little chain leader for the Fortress. You will really need the kedge, besides the main bower anchor. If you can manage it, make the main bower one or even two sizes larger than recommended, then you can sleep at night. You will spend tons of time at anchor, not the least because it is free, so you are right to pay attention to this. You will pay for your ground tackle quite fast in saved marina fees.

3. Midship cleats might not be absolutely essential, but they are highly desirable. Good docking technique requires constant use of springs. I say go for it. On that boat they shouldn't be that hard to arrange. Through bolt them through the hull-deck joint with a stout backing plate underneath. Make sure and seal everything well, and adjust the height with spacers so you get a fair lead. You might consider actually adding some fairleads (and this might obviate the need for spacers too). These are extremely useful bow and stern, too, and a shame that makers don't fit them. Keep in mind that raising cleats on spacers will weaken them -- they will get a lever arm to torque the hull-deck joint, which I suspect is not the strongest thing in the world on a Hunter 27. So fairleads may be a much better way to deal with the lead problem. You can cut out a bit of the alu rail to make space for them at the very edge of the deck.


Here's an example of the type of fairlead which can work:



This kind of hardware is viciously expensive if you buy it new. If you're on a tight budget, scavenging this kind of hardware from scrapped boats will save you a ton of money.


4. Another way to deal with midships mooring is to lead the dock line through a fairlead to a winch. A lot of Swans are set up that way. Can be in addition to, or instead of, actual midship cleats. With decent fairleads, the cleats can also be somewhere inboard, in case it's easier to mount them strongly there. Which means they might be multifunction, too. If you'll post a line drawing of your deck arrangement, there are a few really expert folk on here who might help with ideas.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

My old boat has a 4" hardwood Sampson post with brass bit. There is 1-1/2" of marine plywood below deck (two 3/4" epoxied and screwed to the solid deck and a really massive composite hardwood beam about 12" wide x 4" deep that's tabbed rather well to the hull sides, 8" below that. It works rather well and I never worry about it.

For anchors, if money is tight, get a 33# bruce, it will do you proud in anything short of a named storm. If you have funds get a new gen anchor. I have a Mantus and yes it holds far better then my old bruce ever did, but then the bruce never dragged either. The mantus sticks in the mud and sand very well and is sometimes hard to retreave if the winds had been blowing.

I might recommend a 35# mantus or rocna /mason. A 25# would work for your boat. But when the wind is howling, you'll sleep better with the 33#.

I like the mantus as it has more area per size then the equivalent rocna. The 44# rocna looks smaller then the 35# mantus. My 45# mantus is huge in comparison.

You will need a bow roller for single handing and you'll be glad you have one. Trying to haul an anchor up without one when the wind is up would be a pain.

These are especially good remarks

Also the Mantus anchor. This is quite light weight for a given fluke area, so especially good for a single-hander with no windlass.

[Teknishn]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A couple of suggestions, use or throw away as you like, particularly since I don't know this particular boat, so some might not be relevant.


This kind of hardware is viciously expensive if you buy it new. If you're on a tight budget, scavenging this kind of hardware from scrapped boats will save you a ton of money.

Thanks for that Dockhead. And yes, viciously expensive hardware. Fortunately I work in boat construction and repair. The current project has had 3 project managers over the past few years with each of them ordering various items for the boat and then the owner changes his mind soon after installation so these items are removed and thrown in boxes in the warehouse. Most hardware items are ordered from TopLicht in Germany (And you think West Marine is expensive?). The owner is quite generous with these items and if an item can't be returned, I'm welcome to a good amount of it. The fairlead you posted? Got them! Brass cabin light fixtures, porcelain drawer pulls, Stainless Steel vents, courtesy/step lights, assorted electrical items and more!

Concerning the Samson post installation, have installed a few of them on boats that I have worked on and this looks to be a fairly straightforward installation on this boat. Same goes for the amipship cleats as well.

After considering yours and other's inputs here I'm pretty much sold on the bow roller. Just have to actually set foot on the boat to determine a good installation. Then anchors.....but I'll refer to the other threads here on CF for that info.

Thanks again everyone!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Teknishn

Thanks for that Dockhead. And yes, viciously expensive hardware. Fortunately I work in boat construction and repair. The current project has had 3 project managers over the past few years with each of them ordering various items for the boat and then the owner changes his mind soon after installation so these items are removed and thrown in boxes in the warehouse. Most hardware items are ordered from TopLicht in Germany (And you think West Marine is expensive?). The owner is quite generous with these items and if an item can't be returned, I'm welcome to a good amount of it. The fairlead you posted? Got them! Brass cabin light fixtures, porcelain drawer pulls, Stainless Steel vents, courtesy/step lights, assorted electrical items and more!

Concerning the Samson post installation, have installed a few of them on boats that I have worked on and this looks to be a fairly straightforward installation on this boat. Same goes for the amipship cleats as well.

After considering yours and other's inputs here I'm pretty much sold on the bow roller. Just have to actually set foot on the boat to determine a good installation. Then anchors.....but I'll refer to the other threads here on CF for that info.

Thanks again everyone!

That's excellent Sounds like you're well on your way.

Concerning anchors -- my advice would be don't waste time on research! You will only be limiting your choices, by trying to figure out the mostly minor differences between them. ANY new generation anchor will be perfectly fine. Size it like SailorChic advised. Look hard for an old ugly one on Fleabay, scrapyards, boat jumbles, boatyards, whatever, and just buy the first one of any type which is both cheap, the right size, and new generation.

What I'm about to say is debatable, but I'll throw out here that the Spade is the one NG anchor which is measurably better than the others. As reflected in its considerably higher price. Not enough to sway your choice, but this same Spade anchor has a big drawback in that it is badly galvanized, and very difficult to regalvanize. I JUST BET you could find a rusty one for free which someone has actually thrown away, since he couldn't find anyone to regalvanize it. You could solve that by melting the lead ballast out (the reason why it can't be easily regalvanized), and sending it to the galvanizers, or simply painting it regularly. This problem does not affect its excellent functioning.

[Spade Anchor]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's excellent Sounds like you're well on your way.

I JUST BET you could find a rusty one for free which someone has actually thrown away, since he couldn't find anyone to regalvanize it. You could solve that by melting the lead ballast out (the reason why it can't be easily regalvanized), and sending it to the galvanizers, or simply painting it regularly. This problem does not affect its excellent functioning.

If you find a Spade Anchor in the garbage you have just hit the lottery. Owners of the Spade Anchor know that they can simply call us for a new replacement anchor. It is covered under the lifetime warranty of the Spade Anchor.
There is 0 reasons to ever re galvanize a Spade Anchor. As Spade owner you just call us if your unhappy with your anchors appearance for any reason and the anchor will be replaced by a brand New Spade Anchor.
So when looking for a new anchor you should consider that the Spade Anchor has been established for over 20 years, so our lifetime warranty has some merit as Spade Anchor will be around in the future to honor it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Spade Anchor

If you find a Spade Anchor in the garbage you have just hit the lottery. Owners of the Spade Anchor know that they can simply call us for a new replacement anchor. It is covered under the lifetime warranty of the Spade Anchor.
There is 0 reasons to ever re galvanize a Spade Anchor. As Spade owner you just call us if your unhappy with your anchors appearance for any reason and the anchor will be replaced by a brand New Spade Anchor.
So when looking for a new anchor you should consider that the Spade Anchor has been established for over 20 years, so our lifetime warranty has some merit as Spade Anchor will be around in the future to honor it.

Really?

Wow. I've been using Spade anchors for almost 20 years, and never knew that. That's certainly a generous policy.

Wouldn't it be cheaper and better just to upgrade the galvanizing? Mine is completely shot after 5 years (on this one; not my first Spade). Doesn't matter in the summer because I use it almost every day, and use rubs off the rust. But it looks like carp in the winter time.

[Spade Anchor]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Really?

Wow. I've been using Spade anchors for almost 20 years, and never knew that. That's certainly a generous policy.

Wouldn't it be cheaper and better just to upgrade the galvanizing? Mine is completely shot after 5 years (on this one; not my first Spade). Doesn't matter in the summer because I use it almost every day, and use rubs off the rust. But it looks like carp in the winter time.

The galvanizing has been extensively upgraded, a complete factory overhaul and new GM of the factory have ensured that the finish of the Spade Anchor will be second to none.

Send me a couple of pictures of your Spade Anchor and I get the warranty started. Any original paperwork will be helpful as well.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Spade Anchor

The galvanizing has been extensively upgraded, a complete factory overhaul and new GM of the factory have ensured that the finish of the Spade Anchor will be second to none.

Send me a couple of pictures of your Spade Anchor and I get the warranty started. Any original paperwork will be helpful as well.

Thanks very much! But I'm in the UK, and bought the anchor from Pipler's of Poole. Probably not your territory?


You should spread the word about the new galvanizing! That's seriously good news for Spade anchor users.

[Teknishn]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Concerning anchors -- my advice would be don't waste time on research! You will only be limiting your choices, by trying to figure out the mostly minor differences between them. ANY new generation anchor will be perfectly fine. Size it like SailorChic advised.

Dockhead, took your advice and stopped thinking so much (and credit goes to Sailorchic here as well...Thank you Darlin', great advice and much appreciated), just ordered a 35# Mantus which will be delivered in 2-3 weeks to an old Navy buddy of mine in Virginia. Bow Roller is on hold until one of my ex-wives goes to the boat on Sunday to take measurements between the forestay and port and starboard toe rails. (God, I hope she doesn't expect sexual favours in return doing this for me)

So, one more thing ticked off my list.... (5 months, 28 days and counting down)

[Spade Anchor]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thanks very much! But I'm in the UK, and bought the anchor from Pipler's of Poole. Probably not your territory?


You should spread the word about the new galvanizing! That's seriously good news for Spade anchor users.

Our office in Nice France will take care of you. Spade Anchor has the ability to offer our customer service to anywhere in the world. info@spade-anchor.com is the email.

When price shopping, consider the fact that when you settle for a lessor anchor your going to have to purchase that anchor again. With the Spade Anchor one purchase is a lifetime purchase.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Spade Anchor

Our office in Nice France will take care of you. Spade Anchor has the ability to offer our customer service to anywhere in the world. info@spade-anchor.com is the email.

When price shopping, consider the fact that when you settle for a lessor anchor your going to have to purchase that anchor again. With the Spade Anchor one purchase is a lifetime purchase.

Thank you very much.

The Spade is a truly premium product, and I didn't mind the price difference either time I've bought one. Now I mind it even less!

Note that Fortress are similar in this regard.

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by hamburking

You don't need midship cleats. Tie your dock line directly to the toe rail. The toe rail is structural, very strong. If your line is too fat for the toe rail, install a SS shackle, and tie to that.

...

If you are on a budget a 10kg bruce with 30' of chain and then 200' rode should also do the trick...thats what I've been using for years on my P30. Your H27 is a small boat, you don't have a ton of space for anything you aren't using.

This is great advice re the toe rail. I especially like that we can attach things to it anyplace along the side we desire and that makes it almost infinitely flexible as an attachment point for a direct line or a shackle or other device. A Genoa track would not be as useful for us. I like this toe rail (now if I can only get the two month ago applied painters tape off mine).

I also definitely agree with the unused device storage comment, even though the boat will have more storage when I am done (I may be doing away with the aft port quarter berth entirely, for example, and turning it into some sort of storage space with a means to slide a tray forward and gather items that would be inserted deep into it, if I can figure a safe and effective means of doing so that does not make the space even more useless than it already is).

I am adding locker space anyplace I can figure a way to do so, but we definitely don't have a lot of area to live and store crap that is not used rather regularly when you factor in the volume needed for spares, finishing and maintenance materials and tools, food, water, sewage, etc...

I also like the idea of the 30' of chain for a coastal cruiser and inland river cruiser especially. The rope gets NASTY in the St. John's River because the bottom is very gooey and stinky mud in most places in this river. I don't have enough chain on mine yet, but that is changing very soon too. If I can keep the chain on the bottom and the rope suspended in the water column, the mess and resultant smell from the rode locker will be far less problematic.

While we are on it, how about windlass options for these Hunters? What works for a small 27 foot boat that is also inexpensive and not back breaking?