Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-11-2010, 06:06   #16
Registered User
 
Blue Stocking's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: St. Georges, Bda
Boat: Rhodes Reliant 41ft
Posts: 4,131
craigsmith,

Thanks for your point by point enlargement on my opinions

These were delibrately rhetorical and provacative in nature, as I have seen a few of these fail, and would not have one of them on my 12 ton yawl.
As I said, I tend to be "nerdy" over things, which IMHO, can create more problems than they are worth.
__________________
so many projects--so little time !!
Blue Stocking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 06:14   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: nyc/chesapeake
Boat: gozzard 44
Posts: 315
To assure me that the locktite is indeed locking the screw, I used a punch to make a mark on the screw head and swivel body so a visual check is made every time I set the anchor.

Ronbo
ronbo1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 06:30   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 41,516
Images: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronbo1 View Post
To assure me that the locktite is indeed locking the screw, I used a punch to make a mark on the screw head and swivel body so a visual check is made every time I set the anchor.
Ronbo
✓ Excellent idea!

Use Loctite Threadlocker Red 271
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 06:44   #19
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 26,595
Images: 2
pirate

During my time working in a Poole Boatyard we used to service most of the moorings in Poole Harbour every winter when the boats went ashore.... the biggest replacement part Every Year were the swivels.... the amount of wear from sand etc and swinging 8 times a day with tides (Poole is one of those rare places in the world with double tides) was amazing.... most boats breaking free from moorings in September gales was a result of swivel failure....
Personally the last thing I'd fit to my anchor is a swivel.... and the last anchor I'd choose is a Danforth....
__________________


Born To Be Wild.. Double Click on the picture.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 07:08   #20
Registered User
 
capn_billl's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Naples, FL
Boat: Leopard Catamaran
Posts: 2,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
During my time working in a Poole Boatyard we used to service most of the moorings in Poole Harbour every winter when the boats went ashore.... the biggest replacement part Every Year were the swivels.... the amount of wear from sand etc and swinging 8 times a day with tides (Poole is one of those rare places in the world with double tides) was amazing.... most boats breaking free from moorings in September gales was a result of swivel failure....
Personally the last thing I'd fit to my anchor is a swivel.... and the last anchor I'd choose is a Danforth....
I'll have to agree, I don't use a swivel either. The one that came with my boat was bent and it scared me so I removed it.
capn_billl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 07:25   #21
Registered User
 
svcambria's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Mexico (currently)
Boat: Panda 40 - S/V Cambria
Posts: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsmith View Post

This is why you don't attach directly to the anchor:

Photo from John Harries.

Failed in gusty winds with boat veering.

Swivels (Rocna Knowledge Base)

I have one of these, looks just like the one in this picture, sitting in my lazarette. I pull it out to show others what happens to them. I was very lucky to get my anchor back (let alone go drifting off)...

Michael
svcambria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 07:47   #22
Registered User

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 733
Why do I use a swivel...

Because its stronger and easier to fit than a shackle and possible easier to source when you have 10mm chain as i have.
..........Of course I would not use any old swivel.

So lets look at the options with 10 mm chain, a fairly common size .....

The shackle....
I have the feeling that the average one in the chandlery is too weak... can you really trust them.... the recomendation is to get one that comes tested with a swl of around 4 tons, then you must spread the last link to fit it. To spread the last link is not an easy task. To get a high quality tested shackel is not so easy... you probably have to order it over the internet. (I used to know some sites but I forgot them... the Rocna site has some links I seem to remember). Then you have to lockwire it on.
So even after you end up with a strong tested one off the internet you still need to enlarge the end link to fit it.
(lets also not forget that shackles get an unhealthy side load pull when the pull is not straight just as a swivel does)

The swivel....
Well I dont know much about all those horrible swivels that everyone goes on about but there is no way that I would use any of them. The only swivel is a wasi powerball.. straight pull swl of about 8000kg I seem to remember and if you pull it with side load it will not spread the jaws, instead it will bend your anchor shank... well at least thats what happend when my anchor turned only half way and then the wind blew > 40 kts.
You probably have to get it off the internet as well but one it arrives you just fit it and loctite the 2 special locking screws and then fill the locking screw hole with a bit of sikaflex and jobs done. No enlarging the last link at all.

If I could buy a tested shackle that was as strong as my wasi swivel (or at least stronger than the chain) and did not need to have the last chain link enlarged then I would swap to a shackle.

(If anyone knows of one... could they post a link to the site)

.....Well thats my opinion... Its not too far off is it???.
Fuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 07:51   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: California Coast
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 331
Posts: 681
Acco chain co. makes a swivel that is galvanized and looks like two shackles bolted together. they have screw in clevis pins that have a hole in the end like a regular shackle pin so that you can seize them with monel wire.
I use two. One is at the end of 12" of chain that is shackled to the anchor. The other is at the end of 150' of chain where it connects to the nylon rode.
The anchor is... a ROCNA of course!
I wouldn't trust the stainless anchor swivels from Kong or anyone else. There is no sure way to seize the allen-head screw in pins
Liam Wald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 07:54   #24
Registered User

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Wald View Post
Acco chain co. makes a swivel that is galvanized and looks like two shackles bolted together. they have screw in clevis pins that have a hole in the end like a regular shackle pin so that you can seize them with monel wire.
I use two. One is at the end of 12" of chain that is shackled to the anchor. The other is at the end of 150' of chain where it connects to the nylon rode.
The anchor is... a ROCNA of course!
I wouldn't trust the stainless anchor swivels from Kong or anyone else. There is no sure way to seize the allen-head screw in pins
Well I trust the Wasi Powerball as its the strongest swivel made. Have a read of my previous post which is just above yours.
Fuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 08:11   #25
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 26,595
Images: 2
pirate

I use 2 bow shackles at the anchor.... the pin of the first goes through the end of the anchor and tighted till the screwed end sticks out... I then 'Pin' it (hit with round head hammer) till the end is spread, I then 'wire' the other side of the pin.
Second shackle goes through the first and attatched to the chain with the pin passing through the chain... repeat above process.
I all my years sailing/anchoring I've never had one fail..... I've had an anchor shaft snap on a CQR.... but the shackles were fine..
__________________


Born To Be Wild.. Double Click on the picture.
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 08:48   #26
Marine Service Provider
 
craigsmith's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 407
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by john Fussell View Post
Because its stronger and easier to fit than a shackle and possible easier to source when you have 10mm chain as i have.
..........Of course I would not use any old swivel.

So lets look at the options with 10 mm chain, a fairly common size .....

The shackle....
I have the feeling that the average one in the chandlery is too weak... can you really trust them.... the recomendation is to get one that comes tested with a swl of around 4 tons, then you must spread the last link to fit it. To spread the last link is not an easy task. To get a high quality tested shackel is not so easy... you probably have to order it over the internet. (I used to know some sites but I forgot them... the Rocna site has some links I seem to remember). Then you have to lockwire it on.
So even after you end up with a strong tested one off the internet you still need to enlarge the end link to fit it.
No you don't.

The break of 10 mm G40 is ~5100 kgf. The shackle pin can be up to 15 mm to fit 10 mm chain without modification. From my Van Beest catalog here, a 13 mm high load G6 shackle has a break of 9000 kgf. Crosby is the same, as are other manufacturers. Almost enough to match 10 mm G70 even.


Quote:
Originally Posted by john Fussell View Post
(lets also not forget that shackles get an unhealthy side load pull when the pull is not straight just as a swivel does)
They shouldn't, unless jamming, or the anchor attachment point is poorly designed. Try a bow body type.

Quote:
Originally Posted by john Fussell View Post
The swivel....
Well I dont know much about all those horrible swivels that everyone goes on about but there is no way that I would use any of them. The only swivel is a wasi powerball.. straight pull swl of about 8000kg I seem to remember and if you pull it with side load it will not spread the jaws, instead it will bend your anchor shank... well at least thats what happend when my anchor turned only half way and then the wind blew > 40 kts.
The Wasi PowerBall is just as pointless as the articulated type discussed above. The ball-and-socket joint only articulates 30 degrees, hardly the 90 that would be desirable. And they still intend it to be attached directly to the anchor. No need to of course but then the ball-and-socket idea is a waste of time. It's not conceptually any stronger or better than any other swivel, the Wasi iteration is just well built and of a good quality.

Regarding the SWL, I don't know what size you're talking about. The Wasi PowerBall for 10 mm chain, since that was your example, has a listed break of 64 kN = 6500 kgf. Quite adequate for G40 chain but much less than the aforementioned high load shackle. None of them have a SWL of anything like 8000 kgf, which would imply a break of 32000 kgf - that's pie in the sky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by john Fussell View Post
If I could buy a tested shackle that was as strong as my wasi swivel (or at least stronger than the chain) and did not need to have the last chain link enlarged then I would swap to a shackle.
It's always possible to have the shackle as strong or stronger, for inline pulls the chain pin is (or should be) the weak point, the lowest common denominator.
__________________
Craig Smith
info on anchors & anchoring | Peter & Kiwi Roaís website
craigsmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 09:19   #27
Registered User

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsmith View Post
The Wasi PowerBall is just as pointless as the articulated type discussed above. The ball-and-socket joint only articulates 30 degrees, hardly the 90 that would be desirable. And they still intend it to be attached directly to the anchor. No need to of course but then the ball-and-socket idea is a waste of time. It's not conceptually any stronger or better than any other swivel, the Wasi iteration is just well built and of a good quality.
Thanks for the comments...

Well, I dont agree that the wasi is not conceptually any stronger or better than any other swivel.
It is stronger.
If the magazines or you did a side pull test on all swivels then you would see that the wasi is stronger.
It would be a good and very interesting test... Im challenging you!

Just walk around any boatyard and look at the swivels ... you will never see a wasi with splayed forks... but you will see others.
Show me a picture of a wasi with even slightly splayed forks.

I dont believe I am endangering my boat using a Wasi.
I actually dont care that it only articulates 30 degrees as I only put it on to have a good link between my chain and anchor.

I will have a look later when I have time at the shackles you mention above and I will order one for a test.

If you could give me a link it would help.

Thanks again for the comments
Fuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 09:31   #28
Registered User

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsmith View Post
It's always possible to have the shackle as strong or stronger, for inline pulls the chain pin is (or should be) the weak point, the lowest common denominator.
Sorry but a further comment.....

Why would I want the shackle to be the weak point.?

I dont want a weak point and I have no desire to engineer one in.

My boat disconnecting from my anchor would be a major disaster and if it occurred then I would want it to happen where I had no influence as in the chain breaking.
Imagine being in a critical situation where the connection to the anchor was the only thing protecting my boat and then my engineered in weaker chain pin lets go.
Fuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 10:14   #29
Registered User
 
cfarrar's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Brooklin, Maine U.S.A
Boat: Allures 44
Posts: 734
Images: 2
I wish I could use a standard shackle, but I find that when raising my Rocna (on 5/8" 3-strand and 5/16" chain combo) the chain develops a twist that causes it to jam in the windlass gypsy. When using a swivel (Wasi Powerball) this does not happen.

Does anyone else have this problem?

For now I will stick with the Wasi Powerball, hoping that it's strength is sufficient and keeping an eye out for corrosion. I guess I will replace it before it gets too old, as a precaution against galvanic corrosion, but they ain't cheap!
cfarrar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-11-2010, 20:28   #30
Marine Service Provider
 
craigsmith's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 407
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfarrar View Post
Does anyone else have this problem?
Of course, that's the primary reason for a swivel in most cases. If you manually watch the chain orientation on the gypsy then you can avoid the issue, but the swivel is the easy answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfarrar View Post
For now I will stick with the Wasi Powerball, hoping that it's strength is sufficient and keeping an eye out for corrosion. I guess I will replace it before it gets too old, as a precaution against galvanic corrosion, but they ain't cheap!
The Wasi is plenty strong enough, just not if it's mounted directly on the anchor, like any swivel. Put a shackle between it and the anchor.
There's no reason to replace it when it's old unless it's obviously got problems. Galvanic corrosion in theory will deteriorate the surrounding zinc on the anchor and chain, not the stainless, but in reality it's just not a problem anyway - you will need to re-galvanize the components on account of normal wear and tear long before you see significant loss from it.
__________________
Craig Smith
info on anchors & anchoring | Peter & Kiwi Roaís website
craigsmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anchor Swivel irwinsailor Anchoring & Mooring 190 07-06-2015 18:24
New Windlass Twisting Line / Chain - Change 3-strand or Add Anchor Swivel ? Northeaster Anchoring & Mooring 11 16-06-2010 16:57
To swivel or not to swivel salty_dog_68 Anchoring & Mooring 23 13-10-2008 23:18

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:02.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.