Gord, You're a Lucky Man ! (Other Read too - Major Anchoring Problems)

[Sandero]

Hellosailor,

I hear you, but I beg to differ. Yes Newport is a town for the "arrived" property class, but it IS a tourist town... and DOES cater to them even if they mostly arrive in private cars and yachts.

That it is hard to get to... no convenient airport and train station is a stategy to keep whatever "charm" they can being how appealing it is as a tourist destimation. It has so much to offer, from fine restaurants, museums, historic buildings, sailing charters or all sizes and kinds, nature walks and the list goes on. The anchorage offers hundreds of rental moorings and there are a number of yacht clubs as well as a large general anchorage. Boaters are generally well behaved in the large and reasonably well protected harbor... no crazt PWC or water skiing in the anchorage.. but plenty of small sailboats tacking through the anchorage.

Small boats are NOT discriminated against even though their are ample facilities for large yachts. My suggestion to Sean was that for HIS purposes it would be an ideal "base" location where he could anchor for free, and have access to everything he requires... including free parking. For his clients there is plenty to see and do ashore, lots of good day sail destinations and even over night and weekend sails. If I were going to do what he is doing - charters - I cannot think of a better location in NE waters. Plus you have all the yacht mechanics and supplers up there. Newport is only a 3 hrs drive from NYC, perhaps 2 hrs from Boston. And they do fireworks from Fort Adams which is about as close as you can be anchored to fireworks.

There is a tourist info center which clearly is not targeted to rich yachties, but to the "tourist" grunts who are interested in a taste of NE history for their vacation.

I am not a rich sailor and I feel MORE welcome there than I do in Stonnington, West Harbor, Sag Harbor, Oyster Bay, Huntington Harbor, Norwalk, and all the harbors on the CT shore, Greenport, Shelter Island and Three Mile Harbor. Newport is a sailing capital of the East Coast and it is so for all the above reasons.

Jef
sv Shiva
Contest 36s

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by Jentine

of the way but they aren't gone. Newport, Gloucester, Boston, Plymouth and scads of other ports in New England have areas in which you can anchor. I do it on an annual basis. I call the harbormaster and inquire as to where I may anchor. I have never been treated in any negative fashion. They have all been gracious and professional.
Now, I must admit that some of the anchorages are in less than ideal places, but they are, none the less quite available.

Jim,

Oddly, Newport is one of the harbors I had the problem in. The harbormasters are all over you like stink on a monkey there. They come and visit the minute you drop the hook.

[ssullivan]

Usually, I'd go at it with an ingorant sob like yourself. But... you probably don't even own a boat, nevermind know anything about maritime law. Take your 11 posts and head to another board where your opinion is wanted.

Damn...

Originally Posted by salty_dog_68

sean,


just tell the harbormaster to kiss your a$$ you organic granola eating sissy. i guess the days of free range on the water are gone just like the days when sailors were rum drinking leathery old salts. sailors used to sit around sharing stories of how they survived shark attacks and showing off scars. now they sit at the laptop in their bvd's and complain about how that mean old harbormaster wont let them go to the organic grocery store.

oh, the good ole' days

[ssullivan]

Truely interesting input. I had no idea how the history of the ownership went. Thank you so much for this post. It is quite an eye-opener. I was very curious about these "special anchorages." Often, when I see one, it is loaded up with moorings. It seems as though I can find spots that are just outside the mooring fields, where I am in the bounds of the special anchorage, but also not in the way of the moorings. However, most all of them are filled up with private moorings. Why is that?

We can't seem to find that special "home port" to operate out of this summer, so our new plan is to sell the car, and buy some pannier bags for the bikes. This still doesn't allow us to provision at Whole Foods often, but I guess we can do that once a moth via rental car.

Speaking to DefJef's post, we tried Newport for all of the reasons you had mentioned. It is ideal in so many ways. But... the harbormaster wasn't too keen on us being there for a month. He "strongly suggested" that we pick up a mooring or dockspace. Those were his words. Nice guy, but coming from New England, I understood what he meant.

So... we will just end up floating around, renting cars when the need to provision arises, I suppose. Kind of a shame, but it's the best we can do.

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Rick-
"Sean, if one anchors or utilizes the water anywhere in the inland water system the USCG has legal precidence as a federal governing agency and the federal laws take precidence and priority over local and state agencies. " Sorry, but you are wrong on this. In the original thirteen colonies, corwn charters often gave outright *ownership* of the riparian lands with the charter. Yes, Federal laws take precedence in the matter of NAVIGATION and passage through the waters FOR NAVIGATION but they do not affect property rights which date back to the time before we had a federal government.
You folks in the newly minted states, just don't have the legacy that those of us in the original Colonies have.
And then, to make life more complicated, during WW2 the federal government SOLD riparian titles to raise money for Liberty Bonds. Many towns and villages "bought" federal underwater near-shore lands, in order to get exclusive rights to shellfishing and anchoring. So even outside the colonies, the bottom rights may be PRIVATE even though the rights to PASSAGE may be public.
That's the law, and local, state, and federal jurisdictions are all aware of it. Seems like boaters are the only ones who forgot to ask about it.

Now, it gets more complicated since any boat with an engine usually has to be registered as a motor vehicle--and then it is subject to state motor vehicle laws as well. In Sean's case, in New York waters, if he stays in the water in state for 30 days, he has to have state motor vehicle registration--regardless of documentation. And that also means paying state sales or use tax.
But, if he had no engine, or he documented the fact that the vessel was out of state at least once every 29 days...Legally he'd need no NYS registration and he wouldn't have had to pay tax on it either.

None of which affects the local harbormaster, who has the right to approach any vessel *anchored* in his territory. As to who really owns the bottom, and who is just bluffing? He'd have to go to the local county clerk and get the tax maps to find out for sure.

Sean, you can probably anchor for free, with no time limit, and park alongside in Little Bay at the foot of the Throgg's Neck Bridge. You'll see it on the charts as a "general anchorage" and that means any vessel can anchor there, under federal jurisdiction. The catch is, you are also required to show an anchor light and keep a radio watch, and the USCG from the station at Fort Totten may come by to say hello.

The free parking is courtesy of New York City, in the Fort Totten recreation center parking lot.

It makes a big difference depending on whether the chart shows a "special anchorage" or "general anchorage". If it shows neither...off you go to the county clerk's office again.<G>

[ssullivan]

Jef,

I commented a little bit in the last post to you as well, but I find the humor below hysterical! ha ha ha

"landed gentry"... "forget LI, they're nuts"... ha ha ha. Only people who have been there can really understand what you mean.

That's kind of what I was talking about though. It would seem that anywhere that is a tourist hotspot is mutually exclusive as a good anchorage due to hassles from the local authorities. You are one of the few that really understood what I was trying to say. That's also why I was thinking that maybe there was a better place (country) that didn't have these same issues. But alas... then there are the bribes to contend with in some of the quieter places.

I do want to re-emphasize that people should think long and hard about living at anchor or running a charter business in this country (or possibly others). It's not nearly as rosy a picture as you would think.

Originally Posted by defjef

Sean,

The "ownership" of harbors has been a beef of mine for more than 10 years. There are some harbors where you can't even drop and anchor because it is all given to private moorings... local residents, marinas, mooring business and some town moorings.

Once these towns realize that moorings are a revenue stream they set a mooring field and police the waters, charging fees and so on. West Harbor is all taken up by private moorings now and you are not permitted to anchor close in... but you can anchor half or three quarters of a mile from the dock... but that too is private and unless you are a member of the yacht club... or are purchasing fuel or WATER you cannot even tie up to do a little shopping.

You can anchor in Newport and the Harbor Master is good and the town is a great base and there are public dinghy docks and a launch taxi to ferry supplies and passengers. If you want quiet go to Jamestown and no one will bother you... but when there are no boats or moorings... there are no "services".

How about Three Mile Harbor? It seems like a large enough anchorage... but no services handy. And then if you WANT a seasonal mooring you have to get on waiting lists which extend for years... think of Sag Harbor or Stirling Harbor.. both convenient for "living in" but used mostly by boaters who might sail 5 times a season and park their boats on a mooring.

And the parking thing is also spot on... like no parking from 2am to 4am which means you have no place to leave a car.

The harbor thing is all about private property and making money. Dropping an anchor is way too outlaw for these landed gentry even if they do have a yacht on a mooring. Some local folks get a whole bunch of moorings for themselves too.

Oyster Bay was nasty... as a friend offered me the use of her mooring for a weekend last fall. The man who takes care of the moorings insisted that I could not have launch service and if I left my dinghy at their dock I would have to pay dockage... even though the mooring came with launch service as part of the deal. Its greed, its power and abuse of power.

My suggestion is Newport... forget LI.. these people are nuts.

Jef
sv Shiva
Contest 36s

[Sandero]

Sean,
I have been anchoring in Newport over by Ida Lewis for almost 20 years... admitedly only for up to a week or two at a time at most and usually a few days.

My experiences with the Newport Harbor Master have been positive. He has never approached Shiva for anything. I have received his help on occassion when a raft of power boats same down on my anchor chaine and he came over immediately and sorted it out including cutting the anchor rode of one of the power boat. BTW our 36# CQR held Shiva and 4 power boats in 25-30 knots!

I know some yachties who DO live aboard anchored over there, so your account of trouble seems a bit odd. In fact, I have never seen the HM approach any anchored vessel unless it was anchored too close to another yacht or in the fairway, north of the marker buoys.

I really would like to hear in detail about your "experience" with the Harbor Master in Newport.

We need to remember that "police" and "harbor masters" are hired by the local authorities to protect the "property" and the associated rights of the LOCAL property owners. So in a harbor they need to impose order, regulations, laws, conduct etc.

The first means is to use a mooring grid, assign moorings to those who can claim or "buy/rent the right of use" from the local authority. Next they will designate that you can't anchor in a mooring grid, and perhaps designate an anchorage area for transients. The idea of a live aboard is an anathema to "recreational boating". Even marine business are not meat as "live work spaces" in their minds... especially because of the sanitation issues.

Next they set up a pump out station or have a pump out boat.

Refuse becomes another issue. Many places will charge you to take rubbish and not even provide bins with a slot for anything larger than a coffee cup.

In the minds of the locals they do not want to encourage all sorts of gypsy and pirate boats anchoring in their lovely harbor, despoiling the scenery, using (and abusing) their facilities and interferring with THEIR recreational use of the harbor.

Its America and its all about property and the creation and protection of wealth.

[hellosailor]

"organic granola eating sissy" Obviously said by someone who has no idea how much courage it REALLY takes to eat REAL organic granola.<G>

"I was very curious about these "special anchorages." Often,... However, most all of them are filled up with private moorings. Why is that?" I'm not sure. The "bottom holder" may be leasing the mooring rights to a private homeowners association or something similar. If they really *are* open, well, the pioneers dropped their moorings and you just got there too late.<G>

You have to be persistant and look at the chart notes and cross-refer to the Coastal Pilots to find out the difference between special/general anchorages, and THEY don't say a whole lot either. I think because the USCG/NOAA don't really care about why an anchorage is "special" they just designate them for "manned" versus "parking lot" requirements. (You can't leave an "unmanned" vessel in a general anchorage, a watch must be onboard. Welll...<G>...technology has changed.<G>)

"I was thinking that maybe there was a better place" The grass is always greener, the water always blue-e?<G> Take your boat to the EU, and read up on Jack (Whoosh)'s site about how you may have to pay VAT after it has been declared "imported". Going to Bermuda? Sorry, you'll have to marry in to migrate there. Going to Oz? Gotten easier in the past 20 years but it isn't simple. Going to Switzerland to run on Lac Lucerne? No you won't, the neighbors have to *vote* to allow you to immigrate. Going to Canada, where anyone can declare themselves a refugeee and vanish? Not legally. If you have a college degree and no Canadian wife, you can *just* score the 65 points needed to be allowed in.
We've got our problems, but overall? Not much better anywhere else.

Jef is right to correct me about Newport--it really DOES welcome tourists. It just won't allow them to eat or sleep anywhere, unless they leave gobs of money. Kinda like the Malignant Mouse aka WallyWorld. As long as you bring the money...the management smiles. Nothing unusual about that. Sadly.

Oyster Bay has been at capacity for decades, and that stresses everyone out. I made the mistake of sailing in (real short on fuel) on a moonless night for the first time and when my peripheral vision kicked in and I saw how many masts were around me, I thought "Oh ****! A minefield!" Anytime you are *borrowing* a mooring, remember that everyone claims "Yah, it belongs to my friend" and the best thing is to carry a formal note from the friend saying you have their permission and blessing to do so. Legally...unless there is a "no friends" clause in their lease? That makes you the owner for that time. And lets the nervous harbormaster off the hook if the real owner DOES show up.<G>

But whenever you tell a harbormaster "thirty days" that's permanent residence in most states. In New York, if you anchor in for 30 days? You've become a resident, eligible to vote and, oh yes, also to be drafted.<G> The obligations of "residency", you see. Anchorages are for *passage* and navigation, not for residency.

You might want to check into Zipcars, if they have locations in ports you frequent, they can be a good alternative to taxis or car rentals if you just need a car for a couple of hours from time to time. If you are a regular in a "marine" town, you might also cut a deal with the local supermarket stafff, i.e. give a cashier ten bucks to pick you up or drop you off when they are coming on/off-shift, with your groceries. If you tell the manager you plan to provision there while you're in port, regularly, and just need a little logistics help...Sometimes they can.

Heck, even WalMart has a quiet policy of letting RV's park in their lots overnight--because they want them to be able to restock the whole thing while they're there!<G>

[GMac]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"organic granola eating sissy" Obviously said by someone who has no idea how much courage it REALLY takes to eat REAL organic granola.<G>

To true, it's real hard work

We've got our problems, but overall? Not much better anywhere else.

Drop an anchor wherever you like. There are some obvious places not to like marine farms, end of commercial whafes and the like but otherwise just go for it, no problem.

Drop an anchor in our busiest harbour (not in the shipping chanell or the HM will arrive to pick up the mess) and after a few days the local harbourmaster will turn up and ask intentions. If you intend to stay for a time they will offer you the use of one of their permant moorings (approx $2.50 your money a day I think) or help find a nice place that will ensure you don't get run over by ships, yacht racing fleets and things like that, and he won't charge for the help. You won't get kicked out unless you're being stupid or steeling our girls and beer.

Mind you we have a very new rule now that no going within 50mts of a commercial wharf due to US security concerns As someone said above it appears you maybe now exporting your problems.

After a while you could do a nice cruise down the coast and pop in to see Wheels.

Apart from that all is good so come on down and drop your pick a while, we don't mind. Note: You will have to lose the suit and tie

[Jimske]

Hi,
Just reading through the new anchoring laws in Fla. Hoping that similar actions will happen in New England! Not in my lifetime.
A new weekend season is coming up and I am making plans to move around a bit as I "challenge" the envelope at various anchorges. I am in Spicers' right now and have to be out by April 15th. I am going to try and stay around some of the shallow areas around Noank and see what happens.
Last season I stayed in Essex, East Lyme, Groton, and Westport - got asked to leave in every one.
Prior to this I was up in Nantucket for a couple years and didn't have much trouble there due to being able to borrow a mooring and also dropping a hook.
My Brown Searunner 31 only draws 32" so I have some advantage - but not much. If you have any suggestions for me I'd appreciate it.
Jim

[hellosailor]

Jimske, you have to appreciate that a lot of underwater bottom land in New England IS PRIVATE LAND. Either belonging to private owners, or belonging to local towns, sometimes under Crown grants dating back to the 1600's and 1700's.

Your best bet is to get a chartkit, or electronic charts, and stick to dropping your hook in the marked "General Anchorages" where you are allowed to anchor--as long as you keep an anchor light and anchor watch.

In the "Special Anchorages" don't even think about dropping the hook without the permission of the master. Those are guaranteed to be mooring fields or other locally controlled fields, not open to the public.

Tthe deer and the antelope don't roam on the open range anymore, either.

[Dunkers]

"The deer and the antelope don't roam on the open range anymore, either."

Not without scuba gear anyway

[David_Old_Jersey]

Sean,

But apart from that things were nice and quiet then

[Raven]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Jimske, you have to appreciate that a lot of underwater bottom land in New England IS PRIVATE LAND. Either belonging to private owners, or belonging to local towns, sometimes under Crown grants dating back to the 1600's and 1700's.

Here in Vermont, we have a clear conflict between the public trust doctrine and private land deeds. While waterfront land deeds typically define the boundary to the low water mark, the public trust doctrine can be interpreted otherwise. (The doctrine defines the public trust as "navigable waters and the lands which lie beneath them.") At high water, those navigable areas extend inland. In the current Vermont legislative session, a bill has been introduced to define the public trust boundary to the 10-year high-water mark.

I've never completely figured out the legality of the public trust doctrine when it conflicts with other laws, such as private property. It seems to be a fuzzy area of law that is waiting for definition.

[Jimske]

I respect private property but can't appreciate not being allowed to anchor in safe and out of the way places. I was able to "steal" about 5 weeks hee and there last year by keeping the harbor master informed and extending my stay a bit. I will do the same this year. Maybe folks will get used to me being around and give me a little slack - we'll see.

Jim

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Jimske, you have to appreciate that a lot of underwater bottom land in New England IS PRIVATE LAND. Either belonging to private owners, or belonging to local towns, sometimes under Crown grants dating back to the 1600's and 1700's.

Your best bet is to get a chartkit, or electronic charts, and stick to dropping your hook in the marked "General Anchorages" where you are allowed to anchor--as long as you keep an anchor light and anchor watch.

In the "Special Anchorages" don't even think about dropping the hook without the permission of the master. Those are guaranteed to be mooring fields or other locally controlled fields, not open to the public.

Tthe deer and the antelope don't roam on the open range anymore, either.

[svmariane]

Washington State might be your solution. We are Austrian flagged and cruised Puget Sound for a year & a-half with nary a bobble nor trouble from the gerndamre or harbor masters. Quite easy-going and serene. Beautiful ancorages abound - for free. We once laid over at anchorage for two months doing repairs (near Port Hadlock / Port townsend) no questions asked.