Backing Down? Why Bother When Tide Changes

[Dennis.G]

For me the value of backing down on the anchor with engine is to test the holding.
I don't understand when people say backing down is required to set the anchor as the boat pulling on the anchor will set it as much as required if bottom is good. The harder it blows, the deeper the anchor sets. If it drags, it would have drug under power anyway.
Again I think backing down with engine is good for knowing you will hold, but doesn't really increase the holding you get in the end.
BTW I have sailed into anchorages, dropped hook, and 15 minutes later started up engine and backed down on anchor to make sure I would stay put before jumping in dinghy to explore.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The only time we reset our anchor, is when a significant wind change is expected during the night or when we plan to be ashore. I'll make a point of resetting in the opposite direction of the expected oncoming wind, then let the boat drift back to its present location. In other words.... I set the anchor to the expected wind, not the present wind, then we're all set for the shift and there's no late night surprises. I don't pull up the anchor and begin again, I just gently reverse the boat in the opposite direction in order to rotate the anchor, then slowly up to 2000rpm (briefly) for the "set."

I have tried setting the anchor to the expected (rather than the current) wind direction when entering an anchorage, usually when there is a light wind, but a strong wind is expected from a new direction.

The idea is to set the anchor for the direction of the expected strong wind. The light existing wind will not provide enough force to rotate the anchor from its set position so it will remain in the correct orientation for the new predicted wind.

This is not what you suggesting Ken, but is a similar idea.

I have given up using this technique. On my boat setting the anchor upwind (or across wind) tends to result in a slightly less good set. The main problem is the anchor tends to be set in small arc. Anchors like to dig in initially in a reasonably straight line and of course you loose rudder control while the the boat is stationary. Prop walk and/or any crosswind component will cause the boat to move sideways while the anchor is setting. While only slight, the curved arc is not ideal.

The Mantus rotates or shuffles so well I feel the set is better to set it conventionally even if the anchor must rotate through a large arc when the new wind arrives.

I think the technique could have more merit for a cat, or perhaps a monohull with a bow thruster. This would help keep the boat in tne same position while the setting force is applied. It would also probably be better option if your anchor rotates to a new wind direction poorly. It would be interesting to see some more experimentation in this area.

It is good to see people thinking carefully about their anchoring technique. The above method has not worked for me, but of course YMMV.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

This seems to say that you have, perhaps repeatedly, had your chain break because the anchor was too well set. Further, that it is an advantage for the anchor to drag.

Noooh!

My experience is that people that forcibly bury their anchor are more likely to loose it when the going get going and that I prefer a controlled dragging than loosing the anchor.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

At the risk of being accused of insulting you, please do not anchor upwind of me with your dragging anchor or breaking chain.

I never anchor upwind or down wind of some one, only an idiot would do or suggest that.
Do you really anchor upwind or down wind of some one?

Come on Jim you can do better than that.

My goodness, that Mr the President can make good people grumpy.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by chala

Do you really anchor upwind or down wind of some one?

It is not unusual for boats to be anchored directly upwind or downwind from each other.

It is better, all other things being equal, to choose a spot where this doesn't apply. As cruisers usually have less confidence in the anchoring equipment and techniques of others, most try to avoid situations where there are other boats anchored directly upwind, but this is not always possible.

Of course even if you can pick such a spot, any change in wind direction will alter the relationship.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Delancey

However I may have set it, when I say it is set after the jerk-to-stop, I am confirming it is in fact set by diving on it. Set as in upright, level, and fluke fully engaged in the bottom.

Couple people have stated or endorsed a belief that current usually isn't enough for an anchor to pivot. Panope's videos would seem to contradict this.

Hey, I don't have all the answers. If I did I wouldn't be here asking. My recent anchoring behavior is new and a reaction to my recent experiences. I'm taking in others opinions. My behavior may change. As usual, lot's of folks have their own opinions. Sometimes they seem to contradict themselves.....

If you're diving on it EVERY TIME and verifying the set that way -- then good on you. I would say that's even better than pulling on it, to check whether it is set.

I don't know anyone who does that, but then again, I sail above 50N and sometimes above 60N


I don't like the "jerk stop" setting method, though, I must say. Anchors set best when pulled very, very gently at first -- and indeed when the anchor is not pulled at all, but rather left to "soak", if the bottom is very soft. Then after the tip works in, then slowly increasing the force until you work the anchor into the seabed.

This may be unnecessary in really nice medium mud or clean sand bottoms, but "jerk stopping" will not work in very many bottom types -- anchor will skip across if it doesn't hook in. Very many bottom types demand fairly involved work setting them, to get the anchor in.

You have no control over what the anchor is doing, if you just leave it up to momentum, wind, etc. You can't "work" the anchor, to set it, and be sure it's set.

And if you don't dive on it to check it -- then you have no idea whether you"jerked" just because the anchor caught a ledge or sunken tree limb -- very common occurrence. Not the kind of crap shoot I would every be interested in playing with my boat, which is my home, etc. YMMV.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by chala

Noooh!



My experience is that people that forcibly bury their anchor are more likely to loose it when the going get going :

I f that is a concern, then tie a retrieval line and buoy to the anchor to pull it out backwards.
I have a 40 Kg Rocna on a 38' boat, a little oversized and this Summer preparing for the impending Hurricane I did the best I could to bury the thing, repeated full throttle pulls at slightly different angles, I wanted it buried.
It was tough to get out, I had to run over it quite hard to pry the thing out, was about to go for the retrieval line, but didn't need to.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by chala

Noooh!

My experience is that people that forcibly bury their anchor are more likely to loose it when the going get going and that I prefer a controlled dragging than loosing the anchor. . . .

"Controlled dragging"?? Isn't that an oxymoron? I don't even know what that is. Dragging is by definition loss of control.


And do you really know a single case of someone breaking a chain or shackle because the anchor was set too well? That is impossible if the chain and shackle are properly specified and in good condition. This argument seems simply bizarre to me.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Delancey

Because I know the anchor has rotated around and moved about through the bottom a bit, ..........

How do you know that?

I'm thinking the anchor remains stationary if you've set it well and no "resetting" is necessary with each tide change. I can't say I've noticed people in anchorages starting their engines and resetting their anchors twice each night. I certainly don't.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rwidman

How do you know that?

I'm thinking the anchor remains stationary if you've set it well and no "resetting" is necessary with each tide change. I can't say I've noticed people in anchorages starting their engines and resetting their anchors twice each night. I certainly don't.

That agrees with my experience, and with what I've heard reported by people who dive on their anchors a lot.

I believe that current alone will generally not rotate an anchor. A big wind shift will -- if the wind is strong enough. At least 20 knots for my setup.

A big wind shift will cause other problems, however, in most anchorages, so rotating anchor may be the least of your problems.

YMMV based on the weight of your chain and depth, however. I have quite heavy 1/2" chain and a big anchor -- it might work differently with very light chain.

[SV DestinyAscen]

The effort to back and gently set it is so small - TBH I'm not sure why one wouldn't do it to save the extra minute or two. But then again I have no empirical evidence that not backing is dangerous and dragging since never tried that method.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

poorly set.

The anchor is not poorly set but get more chance to be set properly as pointed out.

Originally Posted by Delancey

that is rotated and correctly aligned to the pull.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Note also Noelex's comment above -- the tide does not put any significant force on the anchor, and often no force at all.

I suppose there are tides and tides.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't dive on my anchor.

Nor do I normally, too many crocks now but I record the track of the movement of the boat when at anchor on my chart plotter.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

it's only in a big wind shift in strong wind.

You answered the above.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You set the anchor for the 99th percentile event, in order to be sure that you will get all the holding, the anchor is capable of, in case of an event that really requires it.

And you must always have a plan b.

Originally Posted by chala

Mark
On going aground: of course choose the softest one, but it is often not your choice.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So the fact that you've done it 500 times without a problem, does not mean that the anchor will hold, if the wind really blows up.

Valid also for engine backed anchor setting.

Originally Posted by chala

My experience is that people that forcibly bury their anchor are more likely to loose it when the going get going and that I prefer a controlled dragging than loosing the anchor.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You set the anchor for the 99th percentile event, in order to be sure that you will get all the holding, the anchor is capable of, in case of an event that really requires it.

So true.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

than one which is just lying on the sea bed

If you sail, the anchor will never be lying on the seabed as you pointed out below.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Like some others on here, I started sailing on boats without motors, and did it for many years. Of course you can set an anchor without a motor -- it's been done for thousands of years. Backing the mainsail does a really good job of this -- maybe better than a motor, because it's easier to get the slow, gradual increase of force which is needed for a good set.

Good anchoring technique requires SETTING the anchor -- this is fundamental.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by chala

Noooh!

My experience is that people that forcibly bury their anchor are more likely to loose it when the going get going and that I prefer a controlled dragging than loosing the anchor.



I never anchor upwind or down wind of some one, only an idiot would do or suggest that.
Do you really anchor upwind or down wind of some one?

Come on Jim you can do better than that.

My goodness, that Mr the President can make good people grumpy.

Chala, "Mr President" has made me fearful, not grumpy... but that discussion belongs elsewhere.

But you keep referring to loosing anchors, presumably due to some part of the system breaking under load. My personal observation is that this is an almost unheard of experience. In all our years of cruising and anchoring, I have seen only two instances of broken chain. One was in the Sea of Cortez, and involved a very "frugal" chap who bought some used chain from a Mexican shrimper who had discarded it because it was too rusty for him to trust. Yep, it broke. The other instance was during cyclone Lisa, anchored at Raoul Island in the Kermadecs. It involved a 60+ foot ferro cement square rigger, anchored on a huge Danforth in hard sand, and on chain with no snubber at all. I don't know what size that chain was, nor what condition it was in, but we were experiencing very strong gusts, pegging our 60 knot anemometer, with commensurate wind waves. That chain parted, and the boat was eventually lost.

So, two instances of chain breaking in over thirty years of observation. During that same period, I've seen countless boats dragging. To me, this observation makes your statement seem of doubtful wisdom.

And as to anchoring upwind of someone else... well, in a crowded anchorage it seems to happen fairly frequently. I'll not anchor immediately upwind of another boat unless at such a distance as to minimize the threat. But, others are definitely less considerate, and it is a fairly common occurrence. Happened just yesterday in Alexander's Bay. We were visiting on a friend's boat when another yacht anchored so that he was less than a boat length ahead of our bow... well over our anchor. The skipper of our boat had to ask him to move, and he did so, rather unwillingly. Happens a lot, Chala... so yes, I guess that there are a lot of your "idiots" sailing around. And if you really prefer a dragging anchor to one that is well set, yes, I'd prefer that you not anchor upwind of me.

I'm not sure how I can "do better than that".

Jim

[JPA Cate]

About backing down: if it does drag at max revs, for our boat, it would start to drag over a sustained 25 knots. Therefore, we would pick the hook up then and there, and try and find a "better" spot.

If Delancey is able to dive his anchor often and found it set to his satisfaction when he has done so using his method, that's fine with me. He's using his experience and is satisfied.

We'll keep with our method for the same reason: backing down works for us!

Ann

[Pelagic]

Looks like the advocates for 'backing down', are not backing down! [emoji1]

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Looks like the advocates for 'backing down', are not backing down! [emoji1]

Getting back down to basics, with my back up against the wall, i'll keep on backing down!

Jim