Twists induced in running rigging

[Seaworthy Lass]

I was interested to read this thread that discusses twisted 2:1 halyards:
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...em-184089.html

I have previously come across very little discussion regarding running rigging twisting.

As mentioned in the above thread, twists on sailing vessels are generally induced either by lines being wound around a winch (or coiled to induce twists) and then being flung off the winch and let run when releasing the load. The twists are compounded each time this is repeated.

Twisted lines result in numerous problems, not just limited to lines not running smoothly over blocks. Broken halyards have been known to hockle and snag as they fall inside the mast, sometimes requiring the mast to be dropped before the halyard can be removed. Importantly, line strength is also diminished with twisting. Braided rope contains an equal number of Z and S strands that twist in opposing directions. Twisting the line itself will load one set of these strands preferentially, immediately reducing strength.

The problem is not unique to the type of fibre or whether single or double braid is used. This affects not just halyards, but every type of running rigging on a boat eg sheets, furling lines, reefing lines, runners….

I find the problem can be minimised by not using excessive numbers of turns on the winch, and if neatening lines wind them in figure 8s to avoid inducing twist. When releasing the furling line off a winch, it helps to always un-twirl the induced twists before letting the sail out again.

The twists can be removed manually by starting from the attached end and manually twisting in reverse, following the weave to make sure the pics are left in straight lines. Do this all the way to the end of the line. The tail will spin as the twists are worked out. I frequently do this on all our sheets and furling lines, particularly after every longer passage. I have not heard anyone mention this, I just assumed it was so basic that it didn’t warrant a comment.

For the main halyard, when the sail is down I undo the shackle and simply look up and keep twisting the halyard until it looks straight. The twists will involve all the line in the mast as well so attach a rope and send the end of the halyard up to the top of the mast, then starting at the base of the mast carefully manually reverse the twisting, as above. You may need to repeat this. It is safer than using a mousing line to drop the entire halyard and it is nearly as effective.

Synthetic rope can retain a shape memory, so reverse any twists sooner rather than later.

Does anyone else do this? Any other tips on how to minimise this problem?
Before flinging lines off a winch it may work to induce an equal number of 360° turns in the line right next to the winch and run the line through your hands to the very end before removing the load. That would be a lot of fuss, but for a critical line like a 2:1 halyard that is not easy to untwist, it may reduce the problem significantly.

SWL

[tenchiki]

I do a reverse coil on my jib sheets after every tack. I usually do 1 more reverse coil than the number of turns on the winch, followed by figure-8-ing the rest. By adjusting the number of reverse coils, I can watch the jib sheets slowly twist or untwist as I tack. This is much easier to watch after I changed from a luggage-tag hitch on the jib to new spliced sheets with a soft shackle, as the soft shackle will absorb some of the twist, making the twist in the sheet more obvious. I have external halyards, and haven't noticed much of an issue with them. I don't have a winch on the main sheet, so any issues with twist develop really slowly, and I don't remember every having to deal with twist.

[ggray]

Reverse coil?

Do you mean alternating coils? One "on top", next "underneath". That's what I do with long lines. It's really like coiling figure eight (I do that with long tails feeding a winch) folded into one "circle" not two. I do the alternating coils especially on water hoses, pressure washer hoses, and long electric cords (shore power cables, etc)

I'm not sure it's the wraps (turns) on the winch that induces twist. When I'm winching a long halyard (and my first step of twist prevention, is hoisting by hand as far as possible) it looks like the line is rotating. Perhaps the bottom flange of the drum is make in the line roll.

Anyway, when I lower the main I try the twist the line the other way as I feed the line out.

[Karanga]

"I'm not sure it's the wraps (turns) on the winch that induces twist. When I'm winching a long halyard (and my first step of twist prevention, is hoisting by hand as far as possible) it looks like the line is rotating."

This sounds like a great idea - getting at least 50% up without the winch must help a LOT.


"Perhaps the bottom flange of the drum is make in the line roll."

Now that you raise this as a thought, I wonder if this is actually the real cause of the twists!!

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by ggray

….
I'm not sure it's the wraps (turns) on the winch that induces twist. When I'm winching a long halyard (and my first step of twist prevention, is hoisting by hand as far as possible) it looks like the line is rotating. Perhaps the bottom flange of the drum is make in the line roll.

My guess is that the line rotation that you are seeing is due to the twist in the line that you have previously induced unrolling.

It is not actually hoisting or lowering the sail via the winch that induces the turns, it is flinging the line off the winch when the load is released and letting it run. So unless you can avoid the winch entirely (it can be done on our boat for the furling line, so I do this as much as possible), I don’t think that partly hoisting by hand is any help.

Have a play with some line on a winch and this can be demonstrated.

Originally Posted by ggray

Anyway, when I lower the main I try the twist the line the other way as I feed the line out.

Yes, giving a reverse twist of 360° every time a turn is taken off the winch will compensate (the headsail sheets are flung off too quickly to do this, but at least the sheets are very easy to later untwist).
What will also work is to leave ALL the turns on the winch while releasing the load, but this often provides too much friction to be practical.

I am not sure what the reverse coil is that Tenchiki suggested, but if it is an anticlockwise coil that induces a twist, and it is made right next to the winch, and the rest of the line following this is straightened and figure 8 turns made to hold the anticlockwise coil in place, then I think this would work very well.

SWL

[Benz]

The partial solution is to limit winch use to a minimum: hoist by hand as long as possible.
The real solution be a design without halyard winches at all. I have none on my boat, and I have no halyard twist problems of any sort.
This is a problem that comes from designs with monstrous triangular mainsails on tracks. A gaff rig with hoops removes all these rope and friction issues. As long as the root cause is un-addressed, there's nothing that will truly mitigate the issue.

[PSGB]

Coiling rope was only necessary on older braided rope on sailing vessels many many years ago to prevent the braid from unwinding. Modern rope is not built the same way. Lines should be folded not coiled. Otherwise with every coil you are inducing a 1/4 turn/twist. A jam is much more likely with twisted halyards and can actually be quite dangerous if you’re trying to lower a sail in heavy weather and are unable because of the twisted line getting caught in a sheave.

[paul.devalier]

I learned the traditional sailor line handling but found this twisting of the halyards and sheets problematic and have dumped it some years ago in favour of techniques I learned from mountaineering. I use a figure 8 coil for managing lines at rest and every time the sail is up and the genoa out, I run all lines 2-3 times over the shoulder to untwist them. It's relaxing and reassuring and keeps overall line twist low from the last jib block and inside the mast to a minimum. But I've never heard of damage before which I will file away. Mainly I do it to keep coil knots at the blocks from happening in brisk weather.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Benz

The partial solution is to limit winch use to a minimum: hoist by hand as long as possible.
The real solution be a design without halyard winches at all. I have none on my boat, and I have no halyard twist problems of any sort.
This is a problem that comes from designs with monstrous triangular mainsails on tracks. A gaff rig with hoops removes all these rope and friction issues. As long as the root cause is un-addressed, there's nothing that will truly mitigate the issue.

Yes, the winch is the culprit when it comes to twisting lines (and if the crew coil lines with an induced twist).

I don’t think hoisting by hand as long as possible does anything at all though unless the winch can be avoided completely. The twists are not induced when hoisting, but when releasing. It is not the length of time the winch is used, it is simply the number of turns on the winch that causes the problem. Whether the winch is used early or late is immaterial, it is flinging off the turns without compensating for the twist they have induced that is the issue.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by paul.devalier

I learned the traditional sailor line handling but found this twisting of the halyards and sheets problematic and have dumped it some years ago in favour of techniques I learned from mountaineering. I use a figure 8 coil for managing lines at rest and every time the sail is up and the genoa out, I run all lines 2-3 times over the shoulder to untwist them. It's relaxing and reassuring and keeps overall line twist low from the last jib block and inside the mast to a minimum. But I've never heard of damage before which I will file away. Mainly I do it to keep coil knots at the blocks from happening in brisk weather.

I do that too . Untwisting the bitter ends of all lines (and coiling in figure 8s to neaten) is a routine for me when sailing.

If any lines are held by a clutch, taking the line off the winch and untwisting it to the end nearly solves the problem if the same number of turns don’t need to be put on the winch and flung off when releasing the load (and this is usually the case). I have found a little care has gone a long way to reducing induced twists.

I first started paying real attention to twisting when our furling line jammed on the drum (and this had to happen in the worst possible conditions, necessitating dropping the furling sail on a halyard tensioner in a narrow strait in a blow). The twisted line may not have caused the jam, but while I was later unravelling the drum I was astonished at how much I needed to untwist the line to get it to lie straight. I started thinking about what induced this and I have never let any of our lines twist to any significant degree since then.

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I was interested to read this thread that discusses twisted 2:1 halyards:
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...em-184089.html

I have previously come across very little discussion regarding running rigging twisting.

As mentioned in the above thread, twists on sailing vessels are generally induced either by lines being wound around a winch (or coiled to induce twists) and then being flung off the winch and let run when releasing the load. The twists are compounded each time this is repeated.

Twisted lines result in numerous problems, not just limited to lines not running smoothly over blocks. Broken halyards have been known to hockle and snag as they fall inside the mast, sometimes requiring the mast to be dropped before the halyard can be removed. Importantly, line strength is also diminished with twisting. Braided rope contains an equal number of Z and S strands that twist in opposing directions. Twisting the line itself will load one set of these strands preferentially, immediately reducing strength.

The problem is not unique to the type of fibre or whether single or double braid is used. This affects not just halyards, but every type of running rigging on a boat eg sheets, furling lines, reefing lines, runners….

I find the problem can be minimised by not using excessive numbers of turns on the winch, and if neatening lines wind them in figure 8s to avoid inducing twist. When releasing the furling line off a winch, it helps to always un-twirl the induced twists before letting the sail out again.

The twists can be removed manually by starting from the attached end and manually twisting in reverse, following the weave to make sure the pics are left in straight lines. Do this all the way to the end of the line. The tail will spin as the twists are worked out. I frequently do this on all our sheets and furling lines, particularly after every longer passage. I have not heard anyone mention this, I just assumed it was so basic that it didn’t warrant a comment.

For the main halyard, when the sail is down I undo the shackle and simply look up and keep twisting the halyard until it looks straight. The twists will involve all the line in the mast as well so attach a rope and send the end of the halyard up to the top of the mast, then starting at the base of the mast carefully manually reverse the twisting, as above. You may need to repeat this. It is safer than using a mousing line to drop the entire halyard and it is nearly as effective.

Synthetic rope can retain a shape memory, so reverse any twists sooner rather than later.

Does anyone else do this? Any other tips on how to minimise this problem?
Before flinging lines off a winch it may work to induce an equal number of 360° turns in the line right next to the winch and run the line through your hands to the very end before removing the load. That would be a lot of fuss, but for a critical line like a 2:1 halyard that is not easy to untwist, it may reduce the problem significantly.

SWL

Yeah, I used to have a similar problem with my running backstays, which are 2:1.

But over the years my rope handling has improved and it went away. Winches are not the problem - the problem is twisting the rope against its natural lay and natural coil form, which is a figure 8. The key is how it feels in your hand - the key is just don't twist it. Handle according to its natural lay. If you try to force it into round coils, it will never be right, and with 3 strand, you can even unlay it.

On winches you just have to let the tail untwist, and then once off the winch go back to its natural form.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Yes, the winch is the culprit when it comes to twisting lines (and if the crew coil lines with an induced twist).

I don’t think hoisting by hand as long as possible does anything at all though unless the winch can be avoided completely. The twists are not induced when hoisting, but when releasing. It is not the length of time the winch is used, it is simply the number of turns on the winch that causes the problem. Whether the winch is used early or late is immaterial, it is flinging off the turns without compensating for the twist they have induced that is the issue.

SWL

I'm persuaded that the more line you run over the winch, especially with tension on it, the more twist you're inducing. Sure, taking it off the winch carefully helps, but is not the entire cure.
On bigger boats with 2:1 halyards that are winched from the get-go (think Gunboats, etc), even with a top swivel, the line starts getting twisted from the very first hoist. It's so bad that some are going to 1:1 halyards.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Benz

I'm persuaded that the more line you run over the winch, especially with tension on it, the more twist you're inducing. Sure, taking it off the winch carefully helps, but is not the entire cure.
On bigger boats with 2:1 halyards that are winched from the get-go (think Gunboats, etc), even with a top swivel, the line starts getting twisted from the very first hoist. It's so bad that some are going to 1:1 halyards.

That’s interesting information. Our main halyard has always been winched from the start. I have never seen the loaded portion of the halyard getting twists induced in it when it is being winched. It occurs when the line is unloaded.

If a halyard starts to become visibly twisted after the first hoist, that is dramatic. Do you think maybe the new line was spooled from the top rather than the side of the reel?

SWL

[Searles]

An age old problem,with most yacht lines ,simple answer ,trail them astern ,even hlyd tails ,the twists come out ,pull them in ,into a bucket of f/w or into the cockpit ,f/w wash and dry ,until next time .⛵️⚓️

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

That’s interesting information. Our main halyard has always been winched from the start. I have never seen the loaded portion of the halyard getting twists induced in it when it is being winched. It occurs when the line is unloaded.

If a halyard starts to become visibly twisted after the first hoist, that is dramatic. Do you think maybe the new line was spooled from the top rather than the side of the reel?

SWL

It only seems to take one hoist--all winch--for the halyard to have a twisting problem on the second hoist. So I can only conclude that the first hoist induced the twist.
Think about it, though: even coming off the spool, the line has a certain way it wants to turn, according to how it was spooled at the factory (this is why the little measuring table that spools the line as they measure it off the roll at West Marine has to rotate the proper way or it all goes kinky). Now you put it around a few bends, especially a sharp one at the mast-base turning block and around and around a winch, and then crank it with serious tension. No wonder it gets giddy!
But let's suppose it's due entirely to poor winch work: what's the solution? bundle the rope up and walk around and around the winch to unwind it, rather than casting off the turns? At the end of the day, whether it's from winching, or casting off, or both, the use of the winch is what bedevils the line.