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Old 20-01-2023, 10:20   #91
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

A couple pics, McHughV. So you can understand the setup:


First... No head can be clocked by a boom on my boat unless you're a small dog on the roof or walking down the side deck areas which is not encouraged at all unless docking.

check out the bowsprit in the picture. I don’t have that yet. I plan to add it later. After this. I’m pretty sure you need one of those to fly the asymmetrical properly. And you definitely need one to fly the code 0 and screecher.








Second, there is absolutely no need for a pole with either Spinnaker type. The boat is 25ft wide.



Here is how it attaches. At least one method. Others are in earlier posts in this thread.






and just for fun. Having nothing to do with anything you said. I saw this nice little polar chart that helps me visualize everything a lot better. So I’m putting it in here with the rest of the pictures. Ha ha



I accept your vote for asymmetrical. But your reasons were a little off for thisboat so I just wanted to make sure you still kept your vote at asymmetrical. Given that this above is how it’s set up on a catamaran. Note, also that I won’t be using the main with it. I’m way too lazy for that. Unless I’m reaching. And it’s light wind.
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Old 20-01-2023, 12:45   #92
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

Chotu,

First time I've seen pics of the inside of your boat.
Hot damn, that is amazingly gorgeous !!!

I hear ya, on a cat the "beam" is the "pole"

I've done quite a bit of sailing on a friend's trimaran, that has a beam somewhere around 25', and that is how he flies his sym. spin. as you have noted above.

If you have that beam, you certainly have options a mono doesn't.

I have nothing against a sym.spin. at all. Once I knew how to handle mine, I flew it often.
A mono really needs a pole for a sym. spin.....imo....

My experience with an asym. spin has been such that the tack gets attached at the bow on a short length of wire.....really like a loose footed big genny. A pole not really required.

I had the sym. spin. on a ketch and would typically fly it in tandem with a mizzen staysail....no main or mizzen up. Worked good.

In your case, yes, I agree...a sym. spin for you.
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Old 20-01-2023, 12:54   #93
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

OK. Good to know. That’s not my boat. I wish. Ha ha. That one is complete.

mine is not at that level at all.

but it has the exact same layout. Everything about my boat is the same as that boat. I just wanted to get the layout across with those pictures.
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Old 20-01-2023, 13:26   #94
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Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
Interestingly, I find the modern day monohull boat is rarely equipped with a spinnaker pole, mast track, and all the other bits and pieces required to fly a spinnaker.
The spinnaker itself is a rare item. Those items are typically an "add one" and usually only seen on racing boats or cruising boats that like to race.

For this reason alone, I think the asymmetrical spinnaker, if there is one at all, is the more logical choice for most modern boats, as it does not require all this paraphernalia.

Sailing dead downwind is so 50's.....sailing on a broad reach is so 90's...kind of thing and while a symmetrical spinnaker can be flown at wider angles, the asymmetrical would seem to be the more practical choice.

Off course, a cat with it's wider beam does offer more possibilities, but the fly in the ointment is usually the fear of an accidental jibe threatening to take your head off.

My vote goes for an asymmetrical.

There is virtually no applicability and no comparison of flying a spinnaker on a monohull vs a catamaran. For most* cats (I wonít make the mistake of writing Ďallí and having a single counter example provided):
- There is no chance of an accidental gybe
- There is no chance of getting hit by the boom during a gybe
- Gybing is simple: turn the helm. Other than adjusting the sheets (easing the old guy and taking in the new guy) there is nothing else to do
- There is no need for a pole, though I have seen a few cats with whisker poles to handle headsails downwind that are larger on the foot than the half-beam. I have once seen a picture of a cat with a spinnaker pole, whose spinnaker had a really long foot
- There is no danger or complexity in handling a spinnaker with a sock on the wide hulls and trampoline area forward of the mast
- Spinnakers are very common amongst cat cruisers who prefer to wait for downwind conditions

Now, an asymmetrical spinnaker on a top down furler is a reasonable solution - not great for DDW but eminently suitable for beam to broad reaching, and arguably simpler handling. But it is leagues ahead of a (used) symmetrical spinnaker in cost and absolutely requires a bow pole, so a non starter for the OP.
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Old 20-01-2023, 14:18   #95
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post

check out the bowsprit in the picture. I donít have that yet. I plan to add it later. After this. Iím pretty sure you need one of those to fly the asymmetrical properly. And you definitely need one to fly the code 0 and screecher.

While bowsprits are definitely the way to go for you, you can always just rig a tack line using your anchor roller.
Will work well enough for the moment.
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Old 20-01-2023, 15:00   #96
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

While boat speed is influenced a lot by sail specs, etc, one must not forget the skill of the captain (or crew).

Back in the day, I often raced my boat. I consider myself a fair sailor, but every once in a while I had a friend onboard that was a pro racer.

I would think I had my boat dialed in, but he would tweak this, adjust that, fiddle with something else, etc, and before you knew it, we were doing 0.5-1 knot faster.

I'd watch and ask questions, but he'd just grunt in response. It's not like he didn't want to share his secrets, but he just couldn't explain his reasoning for doing things.
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Old 21-01-2023, 07:41   #97
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
Chotu,

First time I've seen pics of the inside of your boat.
Hot damn, that is amazingly gorgeous !!!

I hear ya, on a cat the "beam" is the "pole"

I've done quite a bit of sailing on a friend's trimaran, that has a beam somewhere around 25', and that is how he flies his sym. spin. as you have noted above.

If you have that beam, you certainly have options a mono doesn't.

I have nothing against a sym.spin. at all. Once I knew how to handle mine, I flew it often.
A mono really needs a pole for a sym. spin.....imo....

My experience with an asym. spin has been such that the tack gets attached at the bow on a short length of wire.....really like a loose footed big genny. A pole not really required.

I had the sym. spin. on a ketch and would typically fly it in tandem with a mizzen staysail....no main or mizzen up. Worked good.

In your case, yes, I agree...a sym. spin for you.


I agree- symmetric does best with a pole especially deep downwind. But recall in racing when you heat up your angle on a monohull to about 120 AWA you have let the pole forward almost to the head stay to rotate the spinnaker for the reaching angle. Well if you just tack the clew to your bow (possibly using the ATN thing that goes around your furler)- itís pretty much the same setup - you wouldnít race that way but you can cruise that way easily. So in reaching angles I fly spinnaker without a pole when Iím lazy. If I go deeper then put the pole out.
Different strokes- I get it- but just disputing the dogma about poles being required for symmetric.
Btw, an asymmetric doesnít fly well deep downwind without a pole either, unless you strike the mainsail. Same for symmetrical
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Old 21-01-2023, 16:00   #98
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

I measured our spinnakerís foot: just over 5.1m. So it certainly doesnít have anything to do with our LOA, but it does match the 5.2m spacing between the two bow blocks. The height is correct for flying from the hounds, so it is sized for our boat.

Also, the head of the spinnaker extends another 1.0m up as a narrow reinforced nylon tube through which runs the sock control line (up and around a block attached to the head shackle). A length of Dyneema connects the spinnaker head through this tube to the head shackle. The halyard is attached to the head shackle. The tube allows room for the hoisted sock to sit above the head of the spinnaker and allows the head shackle to be close to the spinnaker halyard block.

A pole could be useful for deep downwind to move the spinnaker even further to windward, but unlike a racing monohull we donít bother using the mainsail when using the spinnaker so thereís no need to move it further than the windward bow. If nothing else, the mainsail can only go out about 45* before the upper part of the sail is pressed against the rigging, so why bother?
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Old 24-01-2023, 23:49   #99
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

Just came across this:

https://www.deckchute.com/

Interesting alternative to the standart sock. It's very common on beach cats and these guys seem to have adopted it for larger boats.
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Old 25-01-2023, 02:55   #100
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

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Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Just came across this:

https://www.deckchute.com/

Interesting alternative to the standart sock. It's very common on beach cats and these guys seem to have adopted it for larger boats.

Very interesting. It does mean having the spinnaker loose and shaking for a lot longer than when pulling a sock down from the top, but it does away with the hoisting and lowering of the sock. Though that also means you have to hoist the spinnaker with it fully exposed to the wind. Hmmm, not sure about that.

Does make a nice package on the tramps.
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Old 25-01-2023, 05:36   #101
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

That is an interesting product. It’s really interesting how it asked someone as a roller furler at the same time. It seems to roll the sail and twist it up.

Unfortunately I have already ordered a spinnaker and ATN sock.

I got an all-radial. wasn’t too familiar with that. But it’s supposed to be even a step above tri-radial, Right? Should let me sail closer to the wind like a tri-radial but apparently is built a bit stronger. I got 1.5 ounce. Does that all sound correct?
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Old 25-01-2023, 14:42   #102
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

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That is an interesting product. Itís really interesting how it asked someone as a roller furler at the same time. It seems to roll the sail and twist it up.

Unfortunately I have already ordered a spinnaker and ATN sock.

I got an all-radial. wasnít too familiar with that. But itís supposed to be even a step above tri-radial, Right? Should let me sail closer to the wind like a tri-radial but apparently is built a bit stronger. I got 1.5 ounce. Does that all sound correct?

Not a step above, just different. The all-radial generally has tri-radial head and clew panels and adds cross cut middle panels - is that what youíve got? If so, the tri-radial will go closer to the wind than the all-radial, but tri-radial will generally have a smaller mid-body so not as good downwind.

Not sure about stronger - thatís a function of the cloth weight.

1.5oz sounds right for a spinnaker that will be taken down when the AWS approaches 15kn.
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Old 25-01-2023, 14:48   #103
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

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Not a step above, just different. The all-radial generally has tri-radial head and clew panels and adds cross cut middle panels - is that what youíve got? If so, the tri-radial will go closer to the wind than the all-radial, but tri-radial will generally have a smaller mid-body so not as good downwind.

Not sure about stronger - thatís a function of the cloth weight.

1.5oz sounds right for a spinnaker that will be taken down when the AWS approaches 15kn.

I donít know what I would do without you posting. Thank God for your sailing knowledge. Thank you.

Yes. The only difference is the orientation of the center panels.

I didnít get it yet. I am going to get it tomorrow after all. There are also tri-radials in stock as well. Should I just get one of those? The size and weight of the cloth is the same. All 1.5oz. I feel like I would rather be able to go closer to the wind.

As a matter of fact, these are my choices. These are the ones I can pick up tomorrow. These are in stock.
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Old 25-01-2023, 17:13   #104
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Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

Iím sure you will be fine with whatever. More similar than different. I think what you got may be fine? Not sure which one is ďall radialĒ- suspect star-cut?

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Old 25-01-2023, 20:23   #105
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Re: Symmetric or Asymmetric Spinnaker for Simplicity?

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
I donít know what I would do without you posting. Thank God for your sailing knowledge. Thank you.



Yes. The only difference is the orientation of the center panels.



I didnít get it yet. I am going to get it tomorrow after all. There are also tri-radials in stock as well. Should I just get one of those? The size and weight of the cloth is the same. All 1.5oz. I feel like I would rather be able to go closer to the wind.



As a matter of fact, these are my choices. These are the ones I can pick up tomorrow. These are in stock.

Any will do, except maybe the one with patches. Given the description as good for reaching I also expect that the all-radial is what Lee Sails calls a Starcut. Not from Lee Sails, but our spinnaker is just like that - a no horizontal panels tri-radial.

I donít know how much you care, but see if the sail numbers can be removed (i.e. theyíre not printed or stencilled on the material). That may determine which spinnaker you choose.

If selecting regardless of price, pick the one that is most crispy and whose clews look least worn.

The other part is the head, which likely isnít designed for a sock. Thatís OK with the ATN Sleeve that youíre getting as it seems to provide a strop for that. However, because none of these used spinnakers was designed for a sock, it means that on your boat the spinnaker will be hoisted 1m less high - that extra metre is the space for the raised sock. So maybe the shorter luffed spinnakers will be more suited?
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