Sail Cloth: how to compare?

[CaptainMarkS]

Hi Adelie,

Any special considerations for an in-mast furling main? For example, where do you stand on vertical battens? IMHO, they're a marketing gimmick and add little to foil shape.

What about cross cut vs tri-radial for in-mast furling?

I need to consider additional stretch loads, especially on the leech, with my system.

Thanks for advising!

Originally Posted by Adelie

Here's what I would recommend.

For a cruising mainsail you want heavy Dacron/polyester, with minimal resin fill (so a higher end manufacturer with a tighter weave) in a cross cut rather than radial construction sewn with PTFE thread.

Dacron rather than laminate.
Laminate holds it's shape better over time which is an advantage, but tends to fail catastrophically much earlier than dacron. Dacron tends to lose its shape earlier but lasts much longer.

In a cross cut construction you can have the sail recut/resewn to give it years more life with a decent shape. Whether this is cost effective will depend on age, construction details and local costs.

PTFE thread is the most UV resistant available. Sail failure usually begins with thread failure, which is the result of UV degradation and chafe. https://www.sailrite.com/Notions/Thr...hoCAusQAvD_BwE

For coastal cruising double stitching seams is probably adequate. For offshore cruising, triple stitch. I would consider ponying up for extra-wide seams so that repairs and recutting later are a more viable option.

For coastal cruising 2 reef points is probably adequate. For offshore cruising, 3 reef points at least. If you have a large boat and don't have a trysail, perhaps 4 reefs.

For cruising you absolutely don't want a main with a maxi-roach that overlaps the backstay and hits the backstay every tack or gybe, chafe kills.

Given that you don't want to have a maxi-roach, a regular roach supported will get you an extra 5-10% mainsail area, which is going to be 3-7% extra Main & Foretriangle area which is 1-3% light wind sail area. Light wind is the only time the extra area is an advantage. If you had no battens at all there would be no roach and the main would be cut slightly hollow losing another 2-3% mainsail area, or about 1% light wind sail area. Normal roach vs batten less main costs 2-4% of light air sail area, not nothing, but not that large either.

There is a significant contingent of long-term offshore cruisers that have elected to have no battens in their main. Partial battens create added wear and fatigue areas in the sail, especially at the inboard ends of the battens. Tapered battens help but are not a total solution and incur their own costs.

Full battens help a main hold it's shape over a longer portion of it's life and help support a roach which increases sail area. Given the cost of a full batten system it's probably better to use the money to replace your main a bit more often and perhaps spend the money on better light air foresails.

I would use adhesive cloth to install wear strips on both faces of the main where it lays against the rigging and spreaders. Chafe kills.

I would consider using Orange sail cloth for all panels above the deepest reef, mast the vessel easier to see in storm conditions.

https://ptshipwrights.com/ptsails/wp...-mainsails.pdf

[Lrak]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Daniel,
Not certain where you are located, but saw this sail loft (Somerset Sails

... will ignore all of your requests and sell you the sail THE LOFT OWNER thinks is right for your boat. IF you happen to want exactly what he wants to give you, it is a great deal on an American made sail. Read a bunch of reviews before ordering though so you go in with your eyes wide open.

[JPA Cate]

DanielI,

A whole lot of what you need or want is going to be determined by the weather in which you sail. When we looked at Southern Calif. boats, they had all manner of light air sails. There are a lot of fair weather sailors around, nothing wrong with that. If you hail from San Francisco, your sail plan will be built around average 25 kn daily in summer. If you want to sail California coastally, you will need a wider range of sails than if you would stay in So Cal.

I would go to a smaller loft, not a big name one, in the area the boat will be in for the foreseeable future, and start creating a relationship with them. Pick one person who is likely to stay put for a bit, maybe the owner or their spouse, but someone who speaks knowledgeably with you. Good quality dacron sails can live a long time before getting blown out. I'd avoid laminates, for your usage and experience: one little hole, and they start delaminating. Laminates need careful care which you could find onerous. People around here with them roll them, and take them off the boat after each use, and take them home in long bed pickup trucks. Wouldn't work for a 4 seater Suzuki, would it? Plied leech mainsail might work for you, we had one that was better than its predecessor after the same use and time, as it did not develop leech flutter as young. After that, we went to triradially cut mainsails, and eventually, better fabrics. You pay more, but you get greater longevity. So, how long you plan to keep your boat also plays into it.

Many choices. But, pick a loft. Near wherever you keep your boat. You will let them measure for the sails, very important they do it (they will give you access to the measurements, and also fix it if it doesn't fit); and not just a generic Cat 30 sail. Do you have the tall rig? Bring them your problems and questions, and the occasional box of fried chicken & chips, or cookies or donuts for everyone. Make friends, and most of them will see you right. Eventually, you may come to think of them as "your" loft.

Ann

On edit: Maybe join the Cat 30 owners association and ask one of them near where you have your boat who they use?

[shimari]

Pete7 has already mentioned Sanders Sails. Here' a short Q&A with Peter Sanders with the PO of our boat. The PO use to have a website but it is no longer, unfortunately.

You can find the entire interview here: https://web.archive.org/web/20190529...ss-like/sails/

What is the best Sailcloth material for an offshore cruising boat?
Offshore cruising sails should have the following features: Good resistance to chafe, Good resistance to UV degradation, Durability, Low stretch and the ability to be repaired in places that may not have a fully equipped sail loft. For me this means that the best fabric for most offshore cruising yachts is a “woven one” as opposed to a laminate. As a Sailmaker it is easier to sell something that is perceived to be “modern, fashionable and cutting edge” rather than something that is considered to be “old fashioned” but because it is woven does not mean that it is “low tech”. The woven fabrics that we most commonly use for our offshore cruising sails are nothing like the “terylene” that was first used in sails in the 50’s; developments in the weaving techniques have resulted in “hybrid” fabrics that are not only durable due to their “bulk” but are also low stretch due to the incorporation of a high modulus yarn such as “Vectran” or “Dyneema”. Introducing these yarns increases the stretch resistance of the fabric significantly, making it possible to use a single ply woven fabric where in the past we have had to consider “2 plying cloth” or even selecting a laminate.

Should I have Tri/Bi radial or cross cut sails and should they all be the same?
To answer this question I have assumed that woven fabrics are being selected rather than a laminate. When weaving fabric it is easy to achieve a straight tight weft (across the width of the cloth) yarn but it is very hard to achieve a similar quality of warp (along the length of the cloth) yarn which is why the majority of woven fabrics should only be used in a sail with a “Crosscut” panel layout. This is particularly true if the sail is “high aspect” because this means that the loads will be very vertical requiring the best resistance to stretch in this direction; however; if a sail is “low aspect” the loads are not vertical they are directed more towards the centre of the sail which means that either a crosscut fabric with a very good bias (bias stretch is never really good) or better still a tri-radially cut sail would be better. It is impossible to have a woven sailcloth that is as good on the warp as it is on the weft (or visa versa) therefore it makes sense to use different materials as this means that you will be using the correct cloth for the aspect ratio of the sail. A good example of this is the sailplan on your Southerly 480; the Mainsail and self tacker are both high aspect ratio therefore a crosscut panel layout using a weft orientated cloth is the best choice and because the Genoa is low aspect ratio a tri-radial panel layout using a warp orientated cloth would be preferable.

The boat comes as standard with in-mast furling, should I have full part or no battens?
There are three styles of “in mast” mainsail: a) Battenless: hollow leech with no battens, b) Short battens: Straight leech with short vertical battens, c) Maxiroach (Fat Furl): Positive roach with full length vertical battens. Before deciding on the best choice for your sailing make sure that the mast is capable of accepting all the options because some have such a small “gap” in the section that jamming is common. Luckily the Discovery/Southerly range of yachts all use Selden Masts which do have a suitably large gap therefore the choice is not affected by this. The Battenless option is the “safe” option because there is no chance of a “sail jam” caused by the battens; however; it is not as cosmetically pleasing to look at and the leech can become quite “hooked”. The short vertical battens are probably the most popular because there is little chance of a “jam” and it is more cosmetically pleasing than the “hollowed leech”. The Maxiroach (Fat Furl) has become more popular now that the method of “batten fitting” has been refined. It does provide you with almost the same area sail as you would have with a conventional mainsail and (if the battens remain at the correct angle) it will roll neatly into the mast. We do sell a lot of these sails and I do like them; however; if a customer has long distance aspirations I would probably recommend the “short battens” because damage to the battens on the Maxiroach/Fatfurl sail could make it unusable whilst this would not be true of the “short battened” alternative.

I’m nervous about the sail jamming in the furling mast, can the sails be made to help avoid jams?
If the sail is well made it will not normally be the cause of a “jam”; the normal cause is “improper use of the furling system”. The best way to avoid this problem is to listen carefully to the instruction given at the “handover”. With an electric/hydraulic furler in the Mast and/or an electric winch there is potential to do considerable damage to the sail and also to create a “jam”. I recommend that suitable time is reserved for this discipline.

How long will the sails last before they need renewing?
This is a very hard question to answer because it obviously depends on the material that they are made from and the use and abuse that they receive. Generally “in mast” mainsails will not last as long as conventional Mainsails because they have to be “less bulky” to fit in the mast.

How will they fail, ie slow degradation or BANG?
Woven sailcloth stretches with age therefore before it fails you will notice a reduction in performance, pointing and neatness of furling. If you continue to use the sails in this condition the cloth will eventually tear in the area that has been highest loaded or most UV degraded. This tear is not often terminal making it possible to achieve a temporary repair prior to replacement. Laminate sails are different; because the yarns are not crimped (bent) they do not have the same issue with stretch that is found with woven sailcloth. This means that a laminated sailcloth will hold a better sail shape than a woven one and the initial shape will be maintained for longer; however; when the cloth fails it is normally catastrophic.

[Gone Gypsy]

Take care with recommendations for Marblehead. The premium material folks are referring to no longer made in the US.
I have a new sail being made now and went with C-Breeze by DP. High quality material woven in Germany with good properties in both directions. Triple stitch and WeatherMax rather than Subrella.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by CaptainMarkS

Hi Adelie,



Any special considerations for an in-mast furling main? For example, where do you stand on vertical battens? IMHO, they're a marketing gimmick and add little to foil shape.



What about cross cut vs tri-radial for in-mast furling?

I'm not Adelie, and I don't have in mast, but I have two thoughts to share.

First, I almost bought a boat with in mast that needed a main, and in discussions with a sailmaker, the battens do not add shape but they do allow for a roach.

More important, I have North 3Di Nordac (now 3Di Cruising) roller furling jibs. I love them. Two years and 7000 miles later, they are as limp and supple as a plastic milk jug. Lol. I suspect they would be awful on a conventional main, and at least two friends with them agree, because they are too stiff to furl. But since day 1, I think they would rock on an in mast furler. I believe that many in mast problems result from baggy, soft, stretched out sails, and this material does not do that. And every person who has these sails loves the shape and performance.

[Gone Gypsy]

3Di is a great choice for in mast furling. That stuff is THIN! Lots of room in the furler. My new furling sail is a Genoa. When I get to replacing my in mast main, pretty sure I will upgrade to 3Di.

[bullsails]

3DI is a nice product, but there are some great options from the panelled cloths for a much more affordable price. Noted that for the same money you spend on a 3DI cruise which has polyester fibres you could do a panelled sail in Spectra/ Dyneema or a Carbon cloth which would be amazing on a IMF mainsail.
For clarity and openness, I am a sailmaker of 40+ years experience.

[GSpencerCat30]

Originally Posted by DanielI

Let my try asking this a different way.


I've now gotten quotes from the majors (North, Doyle, Quantum, Mack), and from some lower-priced options (Precision, National, FX). As best I can tell, the former are only offering me a single, higher-priced option (around $2,500). The latter give a range of options, $1,200-$2,500.


Again, it's hard to compare all the different cloths and options, but I'm suspecting that the higher-priced lofts are only about 10% more if you compare similar options. The difference is the lower-priced lofts have lower-tier options. But I've seen good reviews.


So, the question is, for a weekend sailor with a few seasons experience, is the performance of a top of the line sail (e.g., North, or Precision's 500 Series) going to be that noticeably different from one of Precision's lower end offerings?

I got my sails from Precision Sails. I would recommend them. They have a good page on their site that helped me understand the sail cloths offered by all sail makers. https://www.precisionsailloft.com/education/cloth/

[CaptainMarkS]

Originally Posted by bullsails

3DI is a nice product, but there are some great options from the panelled cloths for a much more affordable price. Noted that for the same money you spend on a 3DI cruise which has polyester fibres you could do a panelled sail in Spectra/ Dyneema or a Carbon cloth which would be amazing on a IMF mainsail.
For clarity and openness, I am a sailmaker of 40+ years experience.

So, which lofts would provide the panelled sail you refer to for my in-mast furling main? I'm currently in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico.