Purchasing a boat... what price for re-rigging standing rigging? Should I?

[Stewie12]

If all they recommended was replacing some swages then it could be assumed that the rigging is good. I would go with that as you are going to find that your "new" boat will need some money spent on other things.

[MarsRover]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

It will depend on how you use the boat. Extensive offshore use requires different attitude / $$ than local use.

b.

It will be used offshore for my first two weeks of ownership, and then probably for local use for a while after that while i outfit it and make the other repairs etc... for the next trip.

[MultiCountryDon]

FWIW:
I had all of the standing and running rigging on my Beneteau 36CC replaced professionally earlier this year in Cape Coral,Fl for $6700.

Don

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Hi. When I suggested more research on this boat I was suggesting you look beyond the rigging because Taiwan vessels like this boat often have multiple areas of repairs which far exceed the cost of the rigging.
Teak decks. They become problematic on a lot of boats.
Teak rub rail and aft rails. They look beautiful but require upkeep and sometimes costly repair. Has the entire electrical system been replaced? Fuel tanks?
The engine? Will the seller pay to have it hauled for inspection.

You might not like what I say next but I’d pass on this boat and find another.
I’d reserve money for refurbishing a 40 to 45 foot proven classic rather than undertaking this project. Please read up on the issues with these vessels, the cost to repair and the time required. I know one couple who spent months pulling off a teak deck then another summer on systems. They ended up with a beautiful boat but the repairs exceeded the original investment. They had stars in their eyes when they bought it. Please, just do more research. Looking at this boat all I see are issues. There are some very nice boats available which can be brought up to excellent condition for a lower percentage of purchase price.
Others have asked the forum for advice at a given budget. Anyway.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his old boatbuilding manatees

It seems to me you are making a lot of assumptions about this boat from one photograph. Or maybe you have personally seen it ? Sounds like the op has some knowledge.

[Manateeman]

I visited the builders in Taiwan. There is additional information on the web on this particular vessel. There are countless web pages about these boats.
The OP is an engineer so I think he will be ok.
Do you feel my credentials are inadequate or that my advice was bad.
I never quote people. I think it’s rather odd, or silly. What’s the point doing it.

Wood mast, teak decks...I saw red flags. Maybe you didn’t. And therefore...?
The common expression is ‘a picture says a thousand words’.
You perhaps are under the assumption my comments were based upon one photo which would have some think I am given to commenting randomly or without experience, direct knowledge, skills, ...you know ...credentials.
I commented on the vessel.
Are you commenting on the vessel in question or me?
Happy trails to you
Captain Mark and his silly boatbuilding manatee friends

[rhirwin]

I just had my 44' cutter rigged keel stepped sailboat surveyed by a professional rigger on the East coast. Replacing all of the standing rigging and running rigging including the lifelines was just north of 16K. The estimate was very detailed with every cotter pin, rivet and whipping included with a complete labor and parts breakdown. I checked the price of the lines he quoted and they were virtually identical to West Marine rope pricing. This did not include things like roller furling or replacement of the chainplates. It did include unstepping and restepping the mast as I want to install new wiring and a new radar. While it took my breath away, but I think it was a fair price although I think I could save a huge amount of that by doing a lot of the work myself. Yes, he can do a flemish eye with a whipping in double braid high tech rope in 12 mins flat at $80/hr and it will take me much much longer but my labor rate is $0/hr. Mapping my quote to your picture I would guess-estimate 20K given the two masts. PS off topic- Check operation of the reefer carefully, boat refrigeration and AC can be big bucks.

[Jack C]

I have a Mayflower 48' (Stadel 48) that is pretty similar to the Formosa you are looking at. It has been converted from ketch to sloop. Like you the lower swages on the shrouds are showing fine cracks. Last re-rerig 2016. Based on quotes I got in Israel and Turkey where prices are higher than USA, I think $10k should cover your re-rig including the mizzen mast.
You may also want to replace the lower swages with mechanical terminals like sta-loc. Choose the extended stud. Probably around $150 each or less in USA. If there was a rig inspection, then you are probably safe for your delivery trip by replacing problem swages.
Then when you replace the stays, which you should anyway, you can reuse the mechanical terminals by replacing the cones.

You have a suspiciously co-operative seller who is probably keen to sell. Make sure that you dont ignore the rest of the boat because the rigging may be an emotional smoke screen.

Like others have said, the wood spars, teak decks, fancy rear rail and it being a 80's Taiwan built boat means a significant investment in just what you can see. Take into account 2 or 3 times more non-apparent problems. Maybe think it through before spending on the survey. Surveys only show observable problems. There are serious problems that are difficult to detect. If the survey does not have a show stopper, you may ignore the minor problems which add up very quickly. Minor problems tend to become major once you start digging in.
Lots of similar boats out there. Invest you time in virtual surveys. Research possible boat models, ask extensive questions of the seller, ask for maintenance records, avoid boats with teak decks and wooden spars.
Of course if you are looking for a project and you have the money, time and know how, a beautiful 80's Taiwan built boat is a great option.
I know all about it, its what I did (sans the teak decks and wood spars)

[Tillsbury]

I think that the point is the difference between 5k and 10k in terms of the split of new standing rigging is absolutely peanuts by comparison with the other bills that will be coming up, so the fact that the op is concerned about that is a little surprising.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by rhirwin

I just had my 44' cutter rigged keel stepped sailboat surveyed by a professional rigger on the East coast. Replacing all of the standing rigging and running rigging including the lifelines was just north of 16K. The estimate was very detailed with every cotter pin, rivet and whipping included with a complete labor and parts breakdown. I checked the price of the lines he quoted and they were virtually identical to West Marine rope pricing. This did not include things like roller furling or replacement of the chainplates. It did include unstepping and restepping the mast as I want to install new wiring and a new radar. While it took my breath away, but I think it was a fair price although I think I could save a huge amount of that by doing a lot of the work myself. Yes, he can do a flemish eye with a whipping in double braid high tech rope in 12 mins flat at $80/hr and it will take me much much longer but my labor rate is $0/hr. Mapping my quote to your picture I would guess-estimate 20K given the two masts. PS off topic- Check operation of the reefer carefully, boat refrigeration and AC can be big bucks.

Yep that sounds ballpark around what I have just paid $14.5k for my CT49 Cutter, keel step, synthetic new. That is not including installation which I am part way through.

[NYSail]

Originally Posted by Knotical

Above, you said the wood spars need to be replaced - does 20k price quote include that too? If it does maybe someone with experience/knowledge can give you an opinion.

Wrt standing rigging replacement without the spars, I was quoted $5k on Long Island Sound (we have aluminum spars).

Knotical..... I am here in Mt. Sinai Long Island Sound. Where did you get your quote? This is a soon to be my project. Thanks!

[peter loveridge]

It looks a fairly low tech type of rigging that's probably never been overly stressed. I'd just replace the lower swages with staylock terminals. I wouldn't use synthetic rigging anywhere in a subtropical climate. I especially wouldn't have the terminal bits, whatever type they were having a load of dissimilar metals. ( aluminum and bronze are not good bedfellows). As for wooden masts,if varnished, any defects will be easily seen. You will either have to go up the mast or have it pulled to do this. It's reasonably easy to fit staylock terminals, though if you are using old wire, its not quite as easy as staylock would have you believe

[MarsRover]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

I visited the builders in Taiwan. There is additional information on the web on this particular vessel. There are countless web pages about these boats.
...

I never quote people. I think it’s rather odd, or silly. What’s the point doing it.

Would you mind providing me this additional information on the web on this particular vessel that you've found? That would be much more helpful than just telling me its out there some where! Thank you!!!

Also, I find quoting very useful for instances like this where I've had a TON of replies and want to address them in kind. It also sends the person who is quoted a notification that they've been replied to and allows others new to the thread to jump in and see who i'm responding to exactly!

Originally Posted by captlloyd

It seems to me you are making a lot of assumptions about this boat from one photograph. Or maybe you have personally seen it ? Sounds like the op has some knowledge.

Yeah i have scoured the boat a couple times now.

Originally Posted by rhirwin

I just had my 44' cutter rigged keel stepped sailboat surveyed by a professional rigger on the East coast. Replacing all of the standing rigging and running rigging including the lifelines was just north of 16K. The estimate was very detailed with every cotter pin, rivet and whipping included with a complete labor and parts breakdown. I checked the price of the lines he quoted and they were virtually identical to West Marine rope pricing. This did not include things like roller furling or replacement of the chainplates. It did include unstepping and restepping the mast as I want to install new wiring and a new radar. While it took my breath away, but I think it was a fair price although I think I could save a huge amount of that by doing a lot of the work myself. Yes, he can do a flemish eye with a whipping in double braid high tech rope in 12 mins flat at $80/hr and it will take me much much longer but my labor rate is $0/hr. Mapping my quote to your picture I would guess-estimate 20K given the two masts. PS off topic- Check operation of the reefer carefully, boat refrigeration and AC can be big bucks.

Thanks so much for this detailed reply! VERY VERY helpful. And i agree, the more data points i get from folks in this thread the more i'm realizing that the 10-20k confirms that it doesn't seem inflated as i had originally questioned. It amazes me the discrepancies between costs for rigging jobs between areas, even after you've attempted to factor out the variations between the different vessels.

As for the AC, it is all new, two new units actually. Refrigeration was just redone (though i haven't seen it as it was done after i last visited the boat. will be going back down on the 7th)

While i wouldn't say the AC ducting is the cleanest installation I've seen, the units do seem to be new and they definitely cool well.

Originally Posted by Jack C

I have a Mayflower 48' (Stadel 48) that is pretty similar to the Formosa you are looking at. It has been converted from ketch to sloop. Like you the lower swages on the shrouds are showing fine cracks. Last re-rerig 2016. Based on quotes I got in Israel and Turkey where prices are higher than USA, I think $10k should cover your re-rig including the mizzen mast.
You may also want to replace the lower swages with mechanical terminals like sta-loc. Choose the extended stud. Probably around $150 each or less in USA. If there was a rig inspection, then you are probably safe for your delivery trip by replacing problem swages.
Then when you replace the stays, which you should anyway, you can reuse the mechanical terminals by replacing the cones.

You have a suspiciously co-operative seller who is probably keen to sell. Make sure that you dont ignore the rest of the boat because the rigging may be an emotional smoke screen.

Like others have said, the wood spars, teak decks, fancy rear rail and it being a 80's Taiwan built boat means a significant investment in just what you can see. Take into account 2 or 3 times more non-apparent problems. Maybe think it through before spending on the survey. Surveys only show observable problems. There are serious problems that are difficult to detect. If the survey does not have a show stopper, you may ignore the minor problems which add up very quickly. Minor problems tend to become major once you start digging in.
Lots of similar boats out there. Invest you time in virtual surveys. Research possible boat models, ask extensive questions of the seller, ask for maintenance records, avoid boats with teak decks and wooden spars.
Of course if you are looking for a project and you have the money, time and know how, a beautiful 80's Taiwan built boat is a great option.
I know all about it, its what I did (sans the teak decks and wood spars)

Definitely good advice!!! I'm not married to the boat. I do like it, but I'm being veryy careful not to lose my head emotionally on this. Hence why i'm here!

Originally Posted by captlloyd

But don’t you think the OP knows that those are wood masts and teak decks ? It amazes me when people seek advice on something and get input that is totally off subject to what they are asking. He isn’t asking about wether he should buy the boat, he is asking about rigging estimates. And yes, I am commenting on you. You would never likely buy a boat like that, I understand, but he likes it, I like it, let people make their own decisions. No doubt, that boat is high maintenance, but you have to find other things to do other than sipping Margaritas and typing on C. F.

Yes, I'm very well aware the masts and decks are wood. thanks lloyd. I think we can put a pin in this now

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

I think that the point is the difference between 5k and 10k in terms of the split of new standing rigging is absolutely peanuts by comparison with the other bills that will be coming up, so the fact that the op is concerned about that is a little surprising.

I mean, Tillsbury, if you have $5k you don't care about potentially blowing out the window by not investigating a second opinion on a quote, then I'll send you my venmo account so you can push that cash over here.

Tillsbury, I don't mind AT ALL paying honest money for honest work. But I work hard for my money, and two engineering degrees and 7 years at NASA means I think carefully about my every step.

What I do mind, however, Tillsbury, is that a lot of the rigging estimates I'd seen prior to this thread were 1/4 to 1/3 of what this WAG was coming from the seller and his rigger and that didn't add up to me. Even extrapolating from one mast to two etc... it still seemed inflated and i was trying to figure out if that was true, or if there was something I'm missing. This was my point in posting this thread.

If someone says a number and puts their hand out, that doesn't mean i'm going to cough up the money without thinking about it first. I know a lot of people do, but thats just not me. As someone else mentioned, yes I have a very eager seller and his rigger-friend telling me this info also and that leaves me reasonably skeptical to get other opinions.

My second point of this thread, Tillsbury, is that I mentioned that I had been carefully thinking through this process of searching to purchase an old boat and realized that the likelihood of finding the boat that I'm looking for, but has old/bad/nearly timed out standing rigging is high. Hence why i stated that my plan would be to do new synthetic standing rigging myself when I got it home. So that again brings me to my first point, why would I potentially look at (what had seemed like) potentiall-overpaying for work to be done that is in an opposite direction from work I could do myself and enjoy doing?

I appreciate your reply, I really do, but this goes back to captlloyd's comment about seeking advise based on what details I took the time to provide in the OP and instead getting an answer adjacent. What would have been really helpful, instead, would have been something positive, productive, and demonstrating your experienced knowledge on the subject of these old boats, such as: "Hey! I think the 5-10k difference in what we are talking about here between rigging quotes seems like peanuts in comparison with the other bills that COULD be coming up. SO THEREFORE I highly recommend you look carefully at: this area on the boat for this sort of tell tail of a problem, and this other area for that sort of damage (and so on and so forth) so you can get a better estimate of what you're getting yourself into and be better informed before sealing the deal on this purchase"

[MarsRover]

I got the rigging report from the sellers rigger today.

Just to get this out of the way.... I WILL STILL BE GETTING MY OWN SURVEY (7 oct) and am not making any decisions until then.

Just so we are clear.

I am still on the fence regarding the decision between getting all new rigging, and splitting with the seller and having the sellers rigger do the work, OR, having the seller pay in full for the work listed as "dangerous and immediately needed" to get home safe.

I'm leaning towards the later, because that later list seems substantial, and will come at no cost to me. Then i can sail it home, take it all down and embark on the fun of building all new synthetic rigging myself.

Please weigh in folks! thanks

Photos of pages of rigging inspection:





Salon AC install, i feel meh on the ducting job, but i can always re do that pretty easy:





Galley AC install with obvious history of water intrusion. TBD if this is still on going (hence why i took this photo and plan to compare when i get back down there for the survey. Would love to hear peoples thoughts. Seller said he believes it was from stanchions on the deck needing to be repotted (some evidence of that up top was there) and he thinks he got it dealt with. TBD:

[David B]

Originally Posted by MarsRover

Hello all,

Wow! - beautiful classic. I can see why you want to take her home. Hope it all works out OK for you.

Any other photos? I am sure many of us here would enjoy.

[MarsRover]

Originally Posted by David B

Wow! - beautiful classic. I can see why you want to take her home. Hope it all works out OK for you.

Any other photos? I am sure many of us here would enjoy.

Originally Posted by David B

Wow! - beautiful classic. I can see why you want to take her home. Hope it all works out OK for you.

Any other photos? I am sure many of us here would enjoy.

Thanks David! Yeah definitely love the classic clipper look!

Heres more photos of the good stuff. Still owe photos of the problemed areas i've found... i'll get to it i promise


Port side


Deck at night from the aft deck


Fore deck


Cockpit



Starboard deck side looking aft


Port side settee in salon:



Galley from the salon looking aft:


Fore head:


Aft Stateroom:




Nav station, salon, galley




Helm:


Little custom dinghy that's bow actually comes off and nests into the stern to make it smaller on deck. We'll see how well that actually works....


Aft of center cockpit looking forward at night