Pitted winch race. Any solutions?

[thinwater]

When I said taper, I did NOT mean that the race is tapered. I meant that it looked like the dome below the race. The chrome pitting is harmless, the the bearings and shaft are also among the worse I've seen. I'm still betting there is enough wear you are getting a bind when the tailer is engaged.


I'd just use them and start looking for something newer.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

To me that looks more like blistering of chrome plating than actual pitting and in that case is purely a visual impact in a place which is hidden when the winch is assembled and plays no part in the winches operation.

I’m on an IPad so pics are not that large, but that is what it looked like to me as well.

[Bigjim]

I don't know the difference between pitting and blistering, but I can guarantee you that the surface is pitted. I can feel the holes with my fingers. Since bearings are supposed to ride over the surface of the race, a race with potholes would be less efficient. I doubt if any Indy racers would want to drive over a track with this many potholes.

I don't know what you are seeing on the shaft, but it is entirely smooth. It has no imperfections that I can sense and it feels smooth to the touch, exactly the opposite of the inside of the drum.

[Cheechako]

The pics must be an optical illusion to my eyes. The pitted area looks like a flared chromed area on the winch drum inside skirt. Not an area where the bearing rides. I think that is what others are seeing also. Maybe there is lens distortion or something taking the pic.

With long roller bearings, removing the blistering above the surface and using light grease will allow the bearing to ride on the remaining flat surface and should be fine for a winch use. It's not like a wheel bearing. But leaving the blistering above the surface is not going to work well at all.

[a64pilot]

We keep telling you that it doesn’t appear that the bearings even ride on that surface, and that even if they did as long as you clean it up and make it smooth and ignore the pits, everything will be fine.
You keep responding about Indy race cars etc.
If your so sure it really matters, buy new winches. It seems your seeking someone to tell you that your winches are trashed, you need new ones?

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

...the winch turns very easily before I lock it down with the self-tailer...

You're doing something wrong. Installation of the self tailer should not change the feel of the winch's bearings.

If that horrendous pitting is in fact on a bearing surface, those drums need to be replaced.

[hellosailor]

Jim-
Rashly assuming that you have a firm grip on reality (these days?!) are that there are only pits on the one part, which you suspect is made of an aluminium alloy?

I think we've all seen aluminium develop pits and craters simply from the presence of salt as in salt water. Hell, I've even had lightweight aluminum pots develop pinholes after negligently leaving them full of salted water in the sink overnight.

So, there's no reason to think it is more than the obvious. The aluminum probably had a protective surface layer, which may have been penetrated by grit. Or the casting may have had latent defects (like air bubbles) in the pour. Whatever the cause, it now has pits, and you've got the answers as to how those can be filled.

Might be cheaper to look for a used winch in better shape from a consignment shop or breaker's yard. Welding and machining isn't cheap. Epoxy filling might be good enough, but you'd have to clean it all out again if it didn't last.

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

The pics must be an optical illusion to my eyes. The pitted area looks like a flared chromed area on the winch drum inside skirt. Not an area where the bearing rides. I think that is what others are seeing also. Maybe there is lens distortion or something taking the pic.

With long roller bearings, removing the blistering above the surface and using light grease will allow the bearing to ride on the remaining flat surface and should be fine for a winch use. It's not like a wheel bearing. But leaving the blistering above the surface is not going to work well at all.

The illusion you may be experiencing is probably caused by the flash on my phone. I can guarantee that the surface under the bearing is pitted (concave). The pits are exactly where the lower bearing is positioned. When I first opened the winch the lower bearing was encased in old grease and dirt. I had to drift the bearing out of the drum. The bearing did not turn. It didn't even move.

Since the bottom of the winch is designed NOT to allow grease (and dirt) to wash clear, the first simply collected over the years. I just bought this boat. I'm trying to get it back into shape. I have cleaned and buffed out the races and the bearings and the winch works 100% better than before. It's far from perfect. So, yes, it may still need to be replaced. But it will work for now.

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Jim-
Rashly assuming that you have a firm grip on reality (these days?!) are that there are only pits on the one part, which you suspect is made of an aluminium alloy?

I think we've all seen aluminium develop pits and craters simply from the presence of salt as in salt water. Hell, I've even had lightweight aluminum pots develop pinholes after negligently leaving them full of salted water in the sink overnight.

So, there's no reason to think it is more than the obvious. The aluminum probably had a protective surface layer, which may have been penetrated by grit. Or the casting may have had latent defects (like air bubbles) in the pour. Whatever the cause, it now has pits, and you've got the answers as to how those can be filled.

Might be cheaper to look for a used winch in better shape from a consignment shop or breaker's yard. Welding and machining isn't cheap. Epoxy filling might be good enough, but you'd have to clean it all out again if it didn't last.

I have a firm grip on reality if that matters.

The main question was to see if anyone had experience with this situation before. Various commenters keep saying that "winch bearings" are not "wheel bearings". No kidding. I'm not concerned with speed other than for "performance". We race at our club on Wednesdays and weekends. So, having a bad winch is a disadvantage. (My boat is not an indy racer and we aren't even competitive in our section, regardless of the state of this winch. It's just for fun.)

The real issue is whether we have to replace the winch, and it looks like the only permanent solution is to do so. And, if you replace the one, it usually means you have to replace its mate too, unless I can find an identical one on the market. As I mentioned earlier, the port winch was also pitted, but not as bad. It works in an acceptable manner.

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

You're doing something wrong. Installation of the self tailer should not change the feel of the winch's bearings.

If that horrendous pitting is in fact on a bearing surface, those drums need to be replaced.

I can assure you that I'm doing nothing "wrong". I've maintained winches on several boats and have never seen this happen before. The winch drum turns easily before the self-tailer is installed.

It turns fine when the self-tailer is inserted into the top of the drum over the shaft. At this point the top of the self-tailer is not fully seated. It needs to be pushed down to allow the lock washer to be inserted. Once the self-tailer is pushed down far enough to allow the lock washer to be inserted, the drum no longer turns easily. On the port winch, which is identical, the drum turns fine.

Obviously, there is something still binding the drum. Next time I disassemble it I'm going to look for more dirt or corrosion elsewhere in the unit.

[a64pilot]

That or your missing some kind of shim, thrust washer or something similar.
Pitting will of course reduce bearing surface and if they were highly loaded bearings or very high speed bearing it would lead to accelerated wear of course, but it won’t induce drag. Blisters will, blisters stick up, poke out if you will and will induce drag.
Have you tried moving the drum to the other side to see if the problem follows it? Just move the drum, nothing else, if the problem does not follow, then maybe it’s not the drum.

Inspect the two drums, look for a thrust washer stuck in one that isn’t in the other, I think just maybe someone took it apart years ago and left a spacer / washer out or maybe even stacked two on one side and none on the other, perhaps the dragging one has an extra thrust washer, binding things up?

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

That or your missing some kind of shim, thrust washer or something similar.
Pitting will of course reduce bearing surface and if they were highly loaded bearings or very high speed bearing it would lead to accelerated wear of course, but it won’t induce drag. Blisters will, blisters stick up, poke out if you will and will induce drag.
Have you tried moving the drum to the other side to see if the problem follows it? Just move the drum, nothing else, if the problem does not follow, then maybe it’s not the drum.

Inspect the two drums, look for a thrust washer stuck in one that isn’t in the other, I think just maybe someone took it apart years ago and left a spacer / washer out or maybe even stacked two on one side and none on the other, perhaps the dragging one has an extra thrust washer, binding things up?

Great suggestion. I'll try swapping drums next time I'm on the boat.

As for construction, there is a "drum washer" at the bottom of the two bearings. I assume this is intended to keep dirt from entering at the bottom of winch and keep the grease inside the bearing stack.

Then, there is a spacer between the two bearings that keep the top and bottom bearing properly positioned. Both are made out of plastic. I don't think either one could cause binding with the bearings on their own. The bearing carriers are also made out of plastic, as far as I can tell. If there was any dirt or gunk at the top of the drum, it could push down on the bearing stack and deform the carriers just enough to provide some resistance to the operation of the winch. When working with wheel bearings in many cases there is an optimal torque you put on the bearings. Ideally, the winch bearings should have no pressure applied to then top to bottom. All the forces should be side to side imposed by the spinning drum and any rope pressure.

Here is a diagram that matches my winch almost exactly:

[a64pilot]

Wheel bearings have a pre load because they are tapered bearings, these are not and don’t have a preload.
However it seems something is causing a preload when you fully assemble, making me think that something that is supposed to keep a clearance is missing or just as likely something extra like two of the number 11 in your parts drawing being installed, allowing it to become preloaded.
If swapping sides does nothing try swapping spacers, perhaps they are not identical and fit for an individual winch?
Then for grins leave #11 out and see if it changes things.

[jkleins]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

Great suggestion. I'll try swapping drums next time I'm on the boat.



As for construction, there is a "drum washer" at the bottom of the two bearings. I assume this is intended to keep dirt from entering at the bottom of winch and keep the grease inside the bearing stack.



Then, there is a spacer between the two bearings that keep the top and bottom bearing properly positioned. Both are made out of plastic. I don't think either one could cause binding with the bearings on their own. The bearing carriers are also made out of plastic, as far as I can tell. If there was any dirt or gunk at the top of the drum, it could push down on the bearing stack and deform the carriers just enough to provide some resistance to the operation of the winch. When working with wheel bearings in many cases there is an optimal torque you put on the bearings. Ideally, the winch bearings should have no pressure applied to then top to bottom. All the forces should be side to side imposed by the spinning drum and any rope pressure.



Here is a diagram that matches my winch almost exactly:

Try turning the stripper ring (#6) over. I put mine in upside down (it is difficult to see that there are really two sides). It caused the winch to bind.

Jim

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by jkleins

Try turning the stripper ring (#6) over. I put mine in upside down (it is difficult to see that there are really two sides). It caused the winch to bind.

Jim

Good idea. I'll check it out today.