New Sails! Advice Needed.

[ka4wja]

Dockhead,
I'll make this brief (as opposed to my usual ramblings

And, I realize that you've been researching this for a while now, and I don't want to throw you any curve balls....but...

But, before actually ordered your new sails, please get in touch with Travis at Mack Sails, in Stuart, FL...
Yes they are here in the US, and yes they are an independent sailmaker, but they are some of the best sailmakers anywhere!

Travis (and his brother Colin Mack) have been running the show for a couple decades now (after the father retired Mack-Shaw Sails).....and I have been a customer of theirs for many years....(and my parents customers of their Dad, starting back in the 1970's)
They are honest-to-God sailmakers, they design, cut, and sew sails right there in their own loft in Stuart, FL...using the best of materials around (Challenge Marblehead Dacron, etc.)
I'm not sure much laminated sails they make, but I would never recommend any sail purchase without first talking to them...

772-283-2306 US tele number...

Mack Sails Sailmakers for mainsails, headsails, genoas, spinnakers, lazy jacks

Sail Cloth

Mack Sails - Main, genoa, jib, spinnakers


Tell 'em I recommended that you call.....no, it won't get you a better price, and no, I don't get anything from it at all...
Just that they might spend a few extra minutes talking to you about sailing/cruising.....
As, they are sailors/cruisers themselves.....they grew up sailing/cruising the islands and still have boats that the cruise on with their own families now, as well as know the intricacies of sail design, etc.....

Okay, that all....
Just wanted to say that you should talk to Mack Sails, before you make your final decision....
Ya' never know...



Fair winds...

John MacDougall

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Dockhead,
I'll make this brief (as opposed to my usual ramblings

And, I realize that you've been researching this for a while now, and I don't want to throw you any curve balls....but...

But, before actually ordered your new sails, please get in touch with Travis at Mack Sails, in Stuart, FL...
Yes they are here in the US, and yes they are an independent sailmaker, but they are some of the best sailmakers anywhere!

Travis (and his brother Colin Mack) have been running the show for a couple decades now (after the father retired Mack-Shaw Sails).....and I have been a customer of theirs for many years....(and my parents customers of their Dad, starting back in the 1970's)
They are honest-to-God sailmakers, they design, cut, and sew sails right there in their own loft in Stuart, FL...using the best of materials around (Challenge Marblehead Dacron, etc.)
I'm not sure much laminated sails they make, but I would never recommend any sail purchase without first talking to them...

772-283-2306 US tele number...

Mack Sails Sailmakers for mainsails, headsails, genoas, spinnakers, lazy jacks

Sail Cloth

Mack Sails - Main, genoa, jib, spinnakers


Tell 'em I recommended that you call.....no, it won't get you a better price, and no, I don't get anything from it at all...
Just that they might spend a few extra minutes talking to you about sailing/cruising.....
As, they are sailors/cruisers themselves.....they grew up sailing/cruising the islands and still have boats that the cruise on with their own families now, as well as know the intricacies of sail design, etc.....

Okay, that all....
Just wanted to say that you should talk to Mack Sails, before you make your final decision....
Ya' never know...



Fair winds...

John MacDougall

Thanks!

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And there's Dimension Poliant DYS laminate, made with Dyneema. Same price as the carbon/technora. Anyone have experience of this cloth?

This is what they DP propaganda says about it:

"Dimension-Polyant DYS®

DYS® is the ultimate laminate for radial cruising sails. It consists of very low stretch Dyneema® yarns laminated between thin polyester protective taffetas. Dyneema® has amazing flex life and good UV resistance. It also has lower stretch than Aramids, such as Kevlar®."

That cloth was the runner-up in my choice of sail. I am sure it is a good material and it is the better of the two DP cloths usually fitted on new Oysters. I looked at how much Dyneema goes into the cloth and after a bit of digging got the info. I was disappointed how little it was. It didn't sit well with the marketing story. Maybe not much is all you need but I smelt B.S. and railed against it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

That cloth was the runner-up in my choice of sail. I am sure it is a good material and it is the better of the two DP cloths usually fitted on new Oysters. I looked at how much Dyneema goes into the cloth and after a bit of digging got the info. I was disappointed how little it was. It didn't sit well with the marketing story. Maybe not much is all you need but I smelt B.S. and railed against it.

It's your sailmaker, I'm discussing this with

He told me today that he tried to discourage you from using the string sails you eventually ordered. But you've had quite good luck with them, haven't you?

The choice is between this and the Bainbridge carbon/technora laminate. The price is the same. What do you think?

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It's your sailmaker, I'm discussing this with

He told me today that he tried to discourage you from using the string sails you eventually ordered. But you've had quite good luck with them, haven't you?

The choice is between this and the Bainbridge carbon/technora laminate. The price is the same. What do you think?

My string sails have been good. 3.5 yrs and no delamination signs or any problems really. Shape is really good. They are really heavy. A good thing i.e. strong I believe, but also bad in so far as weight being bad. I'd get them again, but I might well have said that about DYS.

You are spoilt for choice. Not a bad problem.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

My string sails have been good. 3.5 yrs and no delamination signs or any problems really. Shape is really good. They are really heavy. A good thing i.e. strong I believe, but also bad in so far as weight being bad. I'd get them again, but I might well have said that about DYS.

You are spoilt for choice. Not a bad problem.

That's weird -- string sails are supposed to super light

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's weird -- string sails are supposed to super light

They can be. Mine were specified as double heavy duty taffeta coated and so are made tougher than an ultra light string race sail. They are all in a little bit heavier than my old dacron sails, but much nicer and I think they will be stronger and longer lasting.

I did a bit of research out of curiosity. I believe the cloth for my sails were made by the former Jan Reuver's loft in South Africa. They were then part of the Doyle franchise and have recently invested in and taken control of and merged into Uhlman sails. They seem to also make cloth and sails for Quantum under their Fusion M brand. For Doyle under their Stratis Gpx brand (who also use someone in New Zealand) and under Ullman the brand is Fibrepath.

I suspect with all the sleeping around going on above there will be a complex framework of deals as to who can sell what and with what specification, all designed to protect product differentiation, reduce competition and maintain margin. It is probably the case that supply of the cloth is now restricted to just those outfits mentioned and may explain why you are offered the Bainbridge cloth. The Bainbridge cloth is a laminate cloth rather than a string sail and so is quite a different product. I don't know how good it is. Maybe others do?

Did you try Ullman?

The same thing more or less used to be made by DP under the D-4 brand. I had silly price quotes. It is now owned by Incidence Technologies in France and they have moved production to a new factory. They or their dealers can supply and maybe they can compete now?

[Kestrahl]

Actually the south african loft was Doyle many years ago before they had a membrane plant. Then it was Quantum, and now it is Ullman. Your probably right about all the companies sleeping together but officially Doyle Stratis is made in Auckland NZ, Quantum - USA/Malaysia who knows. It is all pretty much the same technology although some have invested more than others and it shows in quality.

This is a interesting piece about Ullman from 2010
Sail-World.com : Dave Ullman - yachting's elder Statesman (Pt.I).

‘We're certainly happy with our very strong presence in the USA, but we really appreciate that we have such solid connections here in Australia and Europe.' In terms of Asia, Dave states, ‘I go a couple of times a year to keep my eye on it. We also work closely with the China Sail Factory. We are their biggest customer and we almost think of them as our extra loft. We've been with them for ten years. We were their first really strong customer, so we've gone through the whole development with them, including membrane/string sails. We did most of the development for them.'

‘Other than North's, everybody's technology in membranes is the same. We all use the same machine. Some might tell you a million different things, but the reality is we all use the Aeronaut machines and we all build out of the same types of panel. It's all basically D4s and they are brilliant! Really ahead', Dave commented. ‘In the not-so-distant future, North's mould patents will run out and then we'll all have the same products again for a while. After that time, there will be something completely different in the way sails are built. Membranes will be gone; sails will be better and a lot cheaper too, so owners will love that!'

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

Actually the south african loft was Doyle many years ago before they had a membrane plant. Then it was Quantum, and now it is Ullman. Your probably right about all the companies sleeping together but officially Doyle Stratis is made in Auckland NZ, Quantum - USA/Malaysia who knows. It is all pretty much the same technology although some have invested more than others and it shows in quality.

This is a interesting piece about Ullman from 2010
Sail-World.com : Dave Ullman - yachting's elder Statesman (Pt.I).

‘We're certainly happy with our very strong presence in the USA, but we really appreciate that we have such solid connections here in Australia and Europe.' In terms of Asia, Dave states, ‘I go a couple of times a year to keep my eye on it. We also work closely with the China Sail Factory. We are their biggest customer and we almost think of them as our extra loft. We've been with them for ten years. We were their first really strong customer, so we've gone through the whole development with them, including membrane/string sails. We did most of the development for them.'

‘Other than North's, everybody's technology in membranes is the same. We all use the same machine. Some might tell you a million different things, but the reality is we all use the Aeronaut machines and we all build out of the same types of panel. It's all basically D4s and they are brilliant! Really ahead', Dave commented. ‘In the not-so-distant future, North's mould patents will run out and then we'll all have the same products again for a while. After that time, there will be something completely different in the way sails are built. Membranes will be gone; sails will be better and a lot cheaper too, so owners will love that!'

Interesting to hear him imply that North's patents are strong. Amazing to me that North managed to patent the moulding process. It seems too obvious. I wonder if there is prior art too. Maybe a toy yacht with injection moulded sails?

[Bluefielder]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

think of a Code 0 as a AAA-cup, & a kite designed for dead downwind as a DD-cup.

"AAA and DD cup" brought me here.
I jest

Reading these few posts from UNCIVILIZED and svTOTEM was worth the trip here. I learned a lot about Code Zero sails .... and the light bulb turned on. I am now considering getting a Code Zero instead of an aSpinnaker.
Thank you.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by poiu

Interesting to hear him imply that North's patents are strong. Amazing to me that North managed to patent the moulding process. It seems too obvious. I wonder if there is prior art too. Maybe a toy yacht with injection moulded sails?

Not only that but the implication is that North has the superior technology, since he says all the sail makers will start using it when the patents expire.

Interesting bit about cheaper better sail in the future. I wonder what the timeline that is.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by poiu

That cloth was the runner-up in my choice of sail. I am sure it is a good material and it is the better of the two DP cloths usually fitted on new Oysters. I looked at how much Dyneema goes into the cloth and after a bit of digging got the info. I was disappointed how little it was. It didn't sit well with the marketing story. Maybe not much is all you need but I smelt B.S. and railed against it.

We now have a brand new set of DYS tri radial sails with Sailcote, the main worked fantastic last season, so this season we took delivery of two new jibs (yankee and staysail), can't wait to try them next week.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

We now have a brand new set of DYS tri radial sails with Sailcote, the main worked fantastic last season, so this season we took delivery of two new jibs (yankee and staysail), can't wait to try them next week.

I'm not far behind you and looking to buy again. My string sails, which were great have suddenly started to struggle in the tropics and I have a few delamination problems. Let me/us know how well they turn out for you.

But can you actually use sails in the Med in summer?

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Not only that but the implication is that North has the superior technology, since he says all the sail makers will start using it when the patents expire.

Interesting bit about cheaper better sail in the future. I wonder what the timeline that is.

I'm sure it is true. I have heard the 3DI are really outstanding. But they are twice the price of something nearly as good.

Also, others are coming along already that are pretty similar. The OneSails company has just launched something that looks like a 3DI.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Bluefielder

"AAA and DD cup" brought me here.
I jest

Reading these few posts from UNCIVILIZED and svTOTEM was worth the trip here. I learned a lot about Code Zero sails .... and the light bulb turned on. I am now considering getting a Code Zero instead of an aSpinnaker.
Thank you.

Glad to provide a bit of entertainment