Laminate Sail reviews - offshore cruising use

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I wasn't aware that sailmakers make storm sails out of laminates.

I'm also not aware that any storm sails are made out of laminates, but that doesn't contradict what I wrote. You're not using storm sails most of the time just because you sail in a windy latitude.


If you sail a big percentage of your time in winds of 20 knots +, you will stretch woven sails a lot faster, than in more benign latitudes.



And at the very same time, baggy sails are doubly undesirable in these conditions, because in strong wind you want to be able to trim them flatter to reduce drag and heel.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'm also not aware that any storm sails are made out of laminates, but that doesn't contradict what I wrote. You're not using storm sails most of the time just because you sail in a windy latitude.


If you sail a big percentage of your time in winds of 20 knots +, you will stretch woven sails a lot faster, than in more benign latitudes.



And at the very same time, baggy sails are doubly undesirable in these conditions, because in strong wind you want to be able to trim them flatter to reduce drag and heel.

Thought you were referring to strong winds. 20+ is the norm for a lot of the tropical route.

Either way, laminates are nice for shape, dacron sails not run to old age are great for cruising. That's why the majority of cruising boats use them.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

I have used a variety of laminate sails offshore - if they have been well designed I typically got 25,000miles from them.

A couple of sets had fabric weight transitions that were not well designed (designers were trying to save weight) and had to be recut much earlier but then went the distance.

I did not see too much difference in the comparable fabrics between major brands, but the design skill and support could vary.

We've sailed a little over 20,000 miles in the past two years, much of it up wind with reefs. So if we had laminates instead of hydranet we would be looking at new sails right now. The hydranet still looks great, has excellent shape and show very little wear. Given how they're aging, these sails will probably last 10 years or 100,000 miles.

We winter in the Caribbean and the laminate sails we've seen and have aboard are not aging well.

For cruising, especially in the tropics it's very difficult to beat any woven fabric, dacron included.

If I were racing I would only buy 3Di but I am not racing currently so it's off the list. Horses for courses.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by GordMay

The beauty of composites, like Carbon, Vectran, and Dyneema etc, is that they start with a much better ability to resist stretch (40% to as much as 500%). But there is another great thing. This performance deteriorates at a much slower pace. Look at a well-made composite sail, that is four or five years old ,and the shape may be nearly as good as new [see Dockhead’s comments].
In fact, up until the point that they fail, from too much sun and abuse, composite sails will typically have pretty nice sails shape.
The same is not true for conventional woven sails. They get baggy, full, and covered with stretch mark,s long before they fail as a triangle.

North Sails, on Carbon fibre sails:
Carbon fibers are impervious to UV damage and have extremely high modulus (low stretch), but are quite sensitive to flex. If you take a raw carbon fiber tow (yarn) and fold it in your fingers it will snap after only one or two hard folds. Depending on the carbon content and the construction of the sailcloth, crews need to be very careful to avoid flogging and hard creases when flaking or folding a sail. A notable breakthrough in the utilization of Carbon is in blending it with Ultra PE fiber where the two material’s complementary properties are synergistic.
➥ https://www.northsails.com/sailing/e...ight-materials

See also: “Carbon based cruising sails” ➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ls-191039.html

Laminates sails are simply mylar or tedlar carriers calendered with an aramid, carbon or polyester structure for strength. The may or may not have a scrim to protect it from chafe and uv, depends on the application. The glue holding all of this together is thermoplastic which doesn't hold up well in the tropics. The mylar shrinks (which ruins the shape) and tedlar is heavy (you don't often see tedlar based sails). Carbon can only bend in the same spot a few times before it breaks (that's why racing sails are rolled not folded). Non carbon sails will wick moisture into the laminate and mildew and destroy the sail. UV destroys the mylar in the tropics.

North 3Di is a molded thermostat, which is bagged and heat set. It's much more durable then the calendered material described above because there is no mylar or tedlar carrier. It can wick moisture if the strings are aramid or poly. It can be manufactured with our without a scrim covering. We were quoted a new North 3Di main and staysail but they were only warranted for one year.

Dacron is still the standard for cruisers for a lot of reasons: cost, durability and performance.

We use hydranet because of our size and have been very happy with it.

[Willis]

Originally Posted by Joli

We've sailed a little over 20,000 miles in the past two years, much of it up wind with reefs. So if we had laminates instead of hydranet we would be looking at new sails right now. The hydranet still looks great, has excellent shape and show very little wear. Given how they're aging, these sails will probably last 10 years or 100,000 miles.

We winter in the Caribbean and the laminate sails we've seen and have aboard are not aging well.

For cruising, especially in the tropics it's very difficult to beat any woven fabric, dacron included.

If I were racing I would only buy 3Di but I am not racing currently so it's off the list. Horses for courses.

20,000 miles in 2 years is impressive. What kind of laminates do you have onboard and what are their issues? I'm trying to relate the issues with specific constructions. Like single or double taffeta (or none?), fibres used and what brand etc. It sounds like laminates do not store well long-term. Did you use them for cruising at any point?

Hydranet and other DP cloths have definitely interested me. But I have been quoted at the same cost as the laminates and weigh the same as x-cut dacron. I have read elsewhere that their performance life is only a modest gain from cheaper cloths, so it is great to hear your review.

[Willis]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Sounds like you could have written your conclusion without any additional info in this thread. No doubt you will enjoy the shape of your laminates.

Haha well maybe. I have a preferred option, which is why I'm looking for users of laminates to relay their experience so I can re-evaluate my opinion. There is plenty of feedback about the issues in this thread, but very little first hand accounts, especially with mylar based laminates. There is also lots of good feedback regarding different radial cut options, which are also high on my list. Like I said earlier, the pros and cons are well known, but first hand accounts are less abundant.

[Jim Cate]

I understand DH's point about laminated sails for in mast furling... sounds quite good. But for those with slab reefing, the issues with crushing or wadding parts of the sail when reefing worry me. Despite one's best intentions, reefing at night under stress and shorthanded often results in non-optimal flaking at the clew. I should think that carbon in particular would suffer from such events.

Our Hydranet radial main shows a bit of creasing around the reef points from just such treatment, but the strength does not appear to have suffered and the sail shape remains good after a decade of cruising. We don't drive the boat hard any more (an age related thing... ours, not the sails!) and we sail in less challenging waters most of the time than DH does routinely... and we are happy with the Hydranet main. The Hydranet Radial genoa, on a furler, is only about five years of age and shows no deterioration at all.

Jim

[Willis]

Originally Posted by Joli

Laminates sails are simply mylar or tedlar carriers calendered with an aramid, carbon or polyester structure for strength. The may or may not have a scrim to protect it from chafe and uv, depends on the application. The glue holding all of this together is thermoplastic which doesn't hold up well in the tropics. The mylar shrinks (which ruins the shape) and tedlar is heavy (you don't often see tedlar based sails). Carbon can only bend in the same spot a few times before it breaks (that's why racing sails are rolled not folded). Non carbon sails will wick moisture into the laminate and mildew and destroy the sail. UV destroys the mylar in the tropics.

North 3Di is a molded thermostat, which is bagged and heat set. It's much more durable then the calendered material described above because there is no mylar or tedlar carrier. It can wick moisture if the strings are aramid or poly. It can be manufactured with our without a scrim covering. We were quoted a new North 3Di main and staysail but they were only warranted for one year.

Dacron is still the standard for cruisers for a lot of reasons: cost, durability and performance.

We use hydranet because of our size and have been very happy with it.

Mylar is usually touted as the reason for the shape to NOT be ruined, this is the first I have heard of the opposite. Is your experience with this based on pure racing sails, which leaves the mylar very exposed? I would prefer to have the double taffeta to prevent this, but I'm still having trouble hearing from users of this construction. I have also never heard of the glue breaking down. Do you mean in the seams of the mylar panels, or the bonding of the entire cloth with all of its layers?

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I wasn't aware that sailmakers make storm sails out of laminates.

JFYI . . . in the OSR's carbon and Aramid (eg kevlar) are prohibited but UHMWPE (eg Dyneema) is allowed in storm sails. Our storm and heavy weather staysails were Dyneema laminate and lasted well. Our trysail was dacron.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

JFYI . . . in the OSR's carbon and Aramid (eg kevlar) are prohibited but UHMWPE (eg Dyneema) is allowed in storm sails. Our storm and heavy weather staysails were Dyneema laminate and lasted well. Our trysail was dacron.

Interesting. Sounds like an expensive way to build storm sails.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

But for those with slab reefing, the issues with crushing or wadding parts of the sail when reefing worry me.

crushing under the reef points, and leach flutter and fabric weight discontinuities (trying to save weight/money on the low-stress panels) are the three major sources of failure (excluding the specific 3dl had with its 'glue').

Proper design can greatly reduce leach flutter and weight discontinuity issues. However proper design for these two points is surprisingly rare.

Proper operator procedures can greatly reduce crushing and leach flutter.

This all is not something that greatly worried me.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Joli

The glue holding all of this together is thermoplastic which doesn't hold up well in the tropics.

North 3DL had distinctive glue issues - their particular molded production process for 3dl imposed restrictions that most other laminates (and 3di) do not have.

'Most' other excellent laminates, that is not a common failure mode. Mylar failure are the most common failure mode, in various ways including shrinking and getting brittle from uv and from flutter and chafe. And for the OP tafita's help reduce the mylar chafe and UV, but those are still the main failure modes even of taffeta sails.

[Breaking Waves]

I might comment . . . . I was a member of North's management committee for a couple of years - as I was CEO for the start-up of one of their subsidiaries.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Interesting. Sounds like an expensive way to build storm sails.

Yea, but at Hawk's size it did reduce weight which helped with single-handed handling. We also had some decent 'discounts from retail' prices

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Joli

The hydranet still looks great, has excellent shape and show very little wear. Given how they're aging, these sails will probably last 10 years or 100,000 miles.

Hydranet has very good reviews. I personally could never wrap my head around the fact that its test numbers are pretty miserable (eg it stretches on the bias a lot in testing). You can minimize bias loads to a good extent with good radial design, but it is still there. Hydrant also never made any impact on long-distance racing, even for training sails, which 'concerned' me.

It may possible also be that I was 'pickier' about sail shape - impossible to know, But I did have Dan Neri looking at our sails regularly and pointing out when and how they changed shape. I have a hard time envisioning any sail material 'lasting' 100,000 miles for me on Hawk - I'm quite sure even 3di would not.

But I am not at all knocking hydranet. cruisers (on boats too big for standard dacron) do seem to like it by and large.