Laminate Sail reviews - offshore cruising use

[Willis]

I'm looking for some real world feedback from cruisers that have been using laminate sails for offshore cruising. How have your sails held up over 1 year, 2 years...? Which cloth are you using? Are you concerned with their longevity? How long ago did you get them? Does the weight difference make you happy? Is the threat of mold a real thing? Even with fancy anti-mildew coatings? Did you have double-taffeta?

I am far more interested in maintaining sail shape than slugging along with a pillowcase after a year or two of full time use. I understand the pros and cons of each cloth so I'm specifically looking for offshore use reviews. I gather early versions of laminates were not so durable. It seems they have come a long way recently.... or have they?

Also, If you have real world feedback from using fancy cloths woven specifically for radial cuts, I would be interested in hearing this feedback as well. do they actually hold their shape much longer than x-cut? Are they worth the high cost for similar weight?

Many thanks

[BigBeakie]

Following, and I hope to see some replies.

I'm also considering membrane sails with GPL Liteskin, but the mildew in the tropics worries me. Not so much the looks because we would choose grey Liteskin that hides it well, but whether there is membrane delam issues with the mildew?

[Breaking Waves]

I have used a variety of laminate sails offshore - if they have been well designed I typically got 25,000miles from them.

A couple of sets had fabric weight transitions that were not well designed (designers were trying to save weight) and had to be recut much earlier but then went the distance.

I did not see too much difference in the comparable fabrics between major brands, but the design skill and support could vary.

[Dockhead]

I've been using laminate sails made with the Bainbridge carbon-technora laminate panels. They have double taffeta and are radial cut. Made by a Solent sailmaker who does a lot of the local race boats.



They have wildly exceeded expectations. I have been using them now for seven years and over 20,000 miles and the shape is like new, and there is no sign of them wearing out, zero delamination, zero mildew.


When I had them made, I expected to be splurging on great sail shape for 3 or 4 years then bang, and lo and behold they are outlasting any sails I've ever had. So they are not even all that expensive considering all the miles I've gotten out of them, with a lot more to go.



I will never buy another woven sail ever again.


I sail in higher latitudes (as high as 72N one year) and tougher conditions. These sails are really great for this because they can be trimmed quite flat for use in stronger wind before reefing.


I have in-mast furling and the laminate mainsail is particularly good for that since it is thinner and more flexible than the former Dacron one. The furling system works really well with the laminate sail.


I can't think of any single downside of them, except cost, but even that is not so bad when you consider the miles of useful life, and they are downright cheap if you are counting miles with a good shape. Best money I ever spent on the boat.

[GordMay]

The beauty of composites, like Carbon, Vectran, and Dyneema etc, is that they start with a much better ability to resist stretch (40% to as much as 500%). But there is another great thing. This performance deteriorates at a much slower pace. Look at a well-made composite sail, that is four or five years old ,and the shape may be nearly as good as new [see Dockhead’s comments].
In fact, up until the point that they fail, from too much sun and abuse, composite sails will typically have pretty nice sails shape.
The same is not true for conventional woven sails. They get baggy, full, and covered with stretch mark,s long before they fail as a triangle.

North Sails, on Carbon fibre sails:
Carbon fibers are impervious to UV damage and have extremely high modulus (low stretch), but are quite sensitive to flex. If you take a raw carbon fiber tow (yarn) and fold it in your fingers it will snap after only one or two hard folds. Depending on the carbon content and the construction of the sailcloth, crews need to be very careful to avoid flogging and hard creases when flaking or folding a sail. A notable breakthrough in the utilization of Carbon is in blending it with Ultra PE fiber where the two material’s complementary properties are synergistic.
➥ https://www.northsails.com/sailing/e...ight-materials

See also: “Carbon based cruising sails” ➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ls-191039.html

[Paul L]

There really isn't any easy answer to this question. What type of cruising you are doing and how fat a budget you have pretty much changes the answers.

If you are doing long distance, full time cruising, you might put on 40 or 50,000 miles in the first 4 to 6 years. If you are fine with getting new sails on the way, then go high tech and get the shape you want. New Zealand, SE Asia, South Africa are all good places to get new sails.

We were just tied up next to Ker 63 that had just crossed the Indian Ocean. They had kevlar/carbon fibre mix laminated sails. The sails were very good for 4 years. Year 5 and they self destructed. He had them laying on the dock next to me and there were loose, floppy strands of carbon and kevlar going everywhere. They were completely trashed and unusable. This included the main and two headsails. An expensive reorder on a boat that size.

Of course if you are going to replace a quality dacron sail as often as you would a laminate, it will have good shape too.

There are non-laminate techy materials like Vectran that lasts a long time and holds a very good shape.

We just ordered a new main in South Africa to replace our Vectran one. I decided to go with a radial cut, Dacron sail.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've been using laminate sails made with the Bainbridge carbon-technora laminate panels. They have double taffeta and are radial cut. Made by a Solent sailmaker who does a lot of the local race boats.



They have wildly exceeded expectations. I have been using them now for seven years and over 20,000 miles and the shape is like new, and there is no sign of them wearing out, zero delamination, zero mildew.


When I had them made, I expected to be splurging on great sail shape for 3 or 4 years then bang, and lo and behold they are outlasting any sails I've ever had. So they are not even all that expensive considering all the miles I've gotten out of them, with a lot more to go.



I will never buy another woven sail ever again.


I sail in higher latitudes (as high as 72N one year) and tougher conditions. These sails are really great for this because they can be trimmed quite flat for use in stronger wind before reefing.


I have in-mast furling and the laminate mainsail is particularly good for that since it is thinner and more flexible than the former Dacron one. The furling system works really well with the laminate sail.


I can't think of any single downside of them, except cost, but even that is not so bad when you consider the miles of useful life, and they are downright cheap if you are counting miles with a good shape. Best money I ever spent on the boat.

Good feedback, but I wouldn't expect much of a mildew problem sailing where you are and higher latitudes. The mildew issue will raise its ugly head in the constant high humidity of the tropics, ditto the UV resistance.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Paul L

There really isn't any easy answer to this question. What type of cruising you are doing and how fat a budget you have pretty much changes the answers.

If you are doing long distance, full time cruising, you might put on 40 or 50,000 miles in the first 4 to 6 years. If you are fine with getting new sails on the way, then go high tech and get the shape you want. New Zealand, SE Asia, South Africa are all good places to get new sails.

We were just tied up next to Ker 63 that had just crossed the Indian Ocean. They had kevlar/carbon fibre mix laminated sails. The sails were very good for 4 years. Year 5 and they self destructed. He had them laying on the dock next to me and there were loose, floppy strands of carbon and kevlar going everywhere. They were completely trashed and unusable. This included the main and two headsails. An expensive reorder on a boat that size.

Of course if you are going to replace a quality dacron sail as often as you would a laminate, it will have good shape too.

There are non-laminate techy materials like Vectran that lasts a long time and holds a very good shape.

We just ordered a new main in South Africa to replace our Vectran one. I decided to go with a radial cut, Dacron sail.

Wel that's the tradeoff with laminated sails, they hold their shape almost perfectly until the day they fail, but the day they fail they do so catastrophically.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Wel that's the tradeoff with laminated sails, they hold their shape almost perfectly until the day they fail, but the day they fail they do so catastrophically.

hmmmm . . . none of our laminates 'exploded' or failed catastrophically.

We had a mainsail that developed about a 2ft diameter hole it in (with load strings crisscrossing it) - about half way on the way from Polynesia to Hawaii - we continues on using it and sailed in on that sail - a relatively gentle progressive failure.

We had a jib that started developing delamination pockets, and again we sailed quite a ways with just slow progressive increases in the delam.

I could recount all the various failure modes . . . but none were explosive. (edit - not saying it does not happen, because it surely does, but it never did to us and is NOT the sure failure mode for laminates)

We did have the head tear off from a new laminate reacher - but that was a straightforward design failure (they built in a 'rip along this doted line' stress riser - North NZ, usually pretty competent but someone had a really off day in the design office)) and nothing to do with laminate aging. I did sew it back on at sea while adding fabric to taper out the stresses.

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Good feedback, but I wouldn't expect much of a mildew problem sailing where you are and higher latitudes. The mildew issue will raise its ugly head in the constant high humidity of the tropics, ditto the UV resistance.

Yup, we basically only developed mildew in the tropics - and only (i think) with spectra laminates (which are known to wick in the moisture - because of spectra low melting point you can't use the same heat/pressure as with other fibers). Never with a carbon laminate, and I believe also never with vectran.

[Willis]

So the collection of feedback resulted in 2 real world, first-hand reviews of full-time cruising use and some good reminders of the pros and cons, as well as some anecdotal 2nd hand feedback. There are a large variety of fabrics available, hence the request for details. I think it's worth pointing out that the first-hand reviews are highly positive, while the cautionary reviews are not from the users themselves. Regardless, ALL of the feedback is greatly appreciated as the subject is complex.

My leading option is to purchase a set of Evolution's Expedition membrane sails. These are made by machine-laid fibres on a mylar film in the exact load path of your particular sail. The fibres are a mix of mainly twaron with a blend of other fibres as per the designers and customers input. The lamination process is done in a highly controlled environment at their Auckland plant. There are far less seams than radial cut options. There is also a layer of taffeta on each side for UV protection and durability. The taffeta is also coated with an anti-mildew treatment. Kevlar is not used as it is extremely susceptible to UV and fails rapidly. The weight savings is significant. This type of cloth seems to address many of the conventional concerns indicated in this thread.

25,000NM appears to be the mileage expected from these reviews above. That would likely allow for 4 to 5 years of cruising. Dacron sails would lose their shape in about a quarter of the time or less so I don't agree that the cost of the sails shape lifespan is equal. Radial cut dacron, by the quotes I have received, approach the cost of laminates due to the labour involved, and provides only a modest gain in performance-life.

The main takeaway is to be a pro with your laminates by not flogging and put them away nicely.

There is clearly a very small population of cruisers adopting these new cloths. Initial cost looks to be the biggest barrier, which is highly reasonable.

Thanks again everyone.

[Paul L]

Sounds like you could have written your conclusion without any additional info in this thread. No doubt you will enjoy the shape of your laminates.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

. . . Of course if you are going to replace a quality dacron sail as often as you would a laminate, it will have good shape too.. .

Not according to my experience. Dacron starts losing its shape the first time you go out, and in my experience stretches noticeably with every 1000 miles of sailing. By 10,000 miles they are bags, at least with larger sails (this may be less true on boats with smaller sails). You'd have to change them every year to have remotely as good shape as what laminates have throughout their lives.

Good laminate sails of the last generation should last at least 20,000 miles. My current sails are made of Bainbridge carbon-technora autoclaved panels. They have more than 20,000 miles on them and the shape is still like new (we did very well in a long distance race with them last summer), and I expect at least another 10,000 miles out of them, if not more.

Just one data point, but in my case at least the laminate sails are lasting as long or longer than woven ones, and with far better shape.

YMMV, but for my boat and the kind of sailing I do, at least, I would never touch a woven sail again.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Not according to my experience. Dacron starts losing its shape the first time you go out, and in my experience stretches noticeably with every 1000 miles of sailing. By 10,000 miles they are bags, at least with larger sails (this may be less true on boats with smaller sails). You'd have to change them every year to have remotely as good shape as what laminates have throughout their lives.

Good laminate sails of the last generation should last at least 20,000 miles. My current sails are made of Bainbridge carbon-technora autoclaved panels. They have more than 20,000 miles on them and the shape is still like new (we did very well in a long distance race with them last summer), and I expect at least another 10,000 miles out of them, if not more.

Just one data point, but in my case at least the laminate sails are lasting as long or longer than woven ones, and with far better shape.

YMMV, but for my boat and the kind of sailing I do, at least, I would never touch a woven sail again.

I'm not anti-laminate sails. They are clearly the best for sail shape. In the scope of cruising, quality dacron sails that are not left to run to old age are also just fine for cruising.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I'm not anti-laminate sails. They are clearly the best for sail shape. In the scope of cruising, quality dacron sails that are not left to run to old age are also just fine for cruising.

I don't disagree. Quality Dacron sails are fine for cruising, especially in smaller sizes of sails. The shape issues don't affect all that many cruisers anyway since not that many cruisers do much upwind sailing anyway.


Where woven sails are less good is basically three use cases:


1. Race or sail a lot hard on the wind


2. Bigger sails with more strain, which stretches woven sails faster


3. In-mast furling, which doesn't like bagginess or bulk or lack of flexibility of the sail.


I guess we could add one more:


4. Sail at higher latitudes or often in stronger conditions.



I check all four of these boxes, so my particular use case strongly requires laminate sails. Other people will have different requirements, so classic case of YMMV.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

.....:


4. Sail at higher latitudes or often in stronger conditions.



....... YMMV.

I wasn't aware that sailmakers make storm sails out of laminates.