In-Mast Furling Question

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Sailor Doug

The mast slot is not symmetrical. You need to always furl with the boom to the left side of the boat. If you fall off the wind a little bit you can control the drag on the sail rolling into the mast without having to add tension on the out haul. I never adjust the topping lift. I use the fixed vang to control boom angle.

Check with the Selden manual that the out haul and rubber bumper have been reassembled properly.

After making a few mistakes and learning the Main RF should create less problems than a RF jib.

Good luck.

Hmm. I'll read the manual again and look at that slot. I will also experiment furling a little off the wind.

But I have not noticed that there is any problem at all with getting the sail into or out of the mast. The mechanism is smooth as butter and the sail happily goes in and out. The foot of the sail is loose when the clew outhaul starts to baulk, so the sail is not slowing down the process. It's the d*mndest thing. There's no load on it at all that I can determine, and it jams.

May it's the vertical angle of the boom, which I haven't gotten just right yet. I managed to free up the clew outhaul by tilting the boom way up by loosening vang and sheet and hauling on the topping lift. Maybe it was too low before, and now it's too high. Maybe it needs to be exactly horizontal. I did not have this problem at sea trials.

[ianhouston]

Originally Posted by duncan_ellison

: My outhaul is *too* free, it comes charging out like an express train if I'm not careful. If I'm not careful, I end up with loads of sail flogging before I can get the outhaul tight.

Duncan: I have exactly the same problem on my Nauticat 35 (Selden in mast furling rig) - I've lost two battens because of violent flogging. What techniques do you employ to slow down the outhaul? I was thinking of having an endless loop installed.

[sail2wind]

Can you add vertical battans or do you need to replace the sail?

[duncan_ellison]

Originally Posted by ianhouston

Duncan: I have exactly the same problem on my Nauticat 35 (Selden in mast furling rig) - I've lost two battens because of violent flogging. What techniques do you employ to slow down the outhaul? I was thinking of having an endless loop installed.

Ian,

The only technique I have is to get the outhaul out as fast as I can before the sail starts flogging, by hand first then around the power winch.

I have the endless line installed, led back to the cockpit, that doesn't really seem to help this problem much, in fact the only real issue I have with the Selden system is the endless line has got jammed or come out of its track a few times and I've had to go to the mast with a Torx head driver, remove the little plate and try not to lose it while the sail is flogging around my ears.

Sound like a lot of hassle when you put it in words, but overall, I still rate the in mast furling over trying wrestle hundreds of sq. yards of canvas since we rarely sail with more than two people and my wife isn't keen on railing and lowering sails at the best of times.

Duncan

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by duncan_ellison

Ian,

The only technique I have is to get the outhaul out as fast as I can before the sail starts flogging, by hand first then around the power winch.

I have the endless line installed, led back to the cockpit, that doesn't really seem to help this problem much, in fact the only real issue I have with the Selden system is the endless line has got jammed or come out of its track a few times and I've had to go to the mast with a Torx head driver, remove the little plate and try not to lose it while the sail is flogging around my ears.

Sound like a lot of hassle when you put it in words, but overall, I still rate the in mast furling over trying wrestle hundreds of sq. yards of canvas since we rarely sail with more than two people and my wife isn't keen on railing and lowering sails at the best of times.

Duncan

I don't understand this problem. Why don't you just control the rate of unfurling with the furling line? When we unfurl the mainsail, I usually control the furling line, keeping some tension on it, while my crew hauls on the clew outhaul line. We keep a certain amount of tension on the clew to prevent the mainsail from flapping around.

If you have any problem with your endless furling line, why don't you go to the mast with a winch handle and control the furler that way? It's a direct drive to the foil.

[duncan_ellison]

Dockhead,

It may just be the way my furler lines are set up, but I haven't found it to be a very sensitive tool for playing the furler, the rope slips on the (rather small) drum and because of the endless line there's a lot of activity on the furler rope going in and out of the clutches (I usually throw the rest of the furler line down the companionway hatch to give it a but of room to run) - just keeping it from knotting up is sometimes a challenge.

Since there's usually only me pulling on ropes (my wife or the autopilot is using driving the boat at this point), I'm usually to be found at the other side of the cockpit working the outhaul, so that's probably the main reason I find this tricky. If you have more crew YMMV.

Regarding the direct handle method, IMHO you don't want to do this when hauling out the sail, as you say, it's a direct drive and although I have no first hand experience, I'm sure if the wind caught the main you'd have difficulty controlling it.

OTOH, I have had to use the drum to bring the sail in (using the drum ratchet this time) and apart from needing to be on the outhaul in the cockpit and the mast at the same time, my main issue is the winch handles I have on board won't do a full 360 deg. without jamming on the other mast hardware. Probably need to shop around for a handle with a bigger 'crank' in it.

Duncan

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by duncan_ellison

Dockhead,

It may just be the way my furler lines are set up, but I haven't found it to be a very sensitive tool for playing the furler, the rope slips on the (rather small) drum and because of the endless line there's a lot of activity on the furler rope going in and out of the clutches (I usually throw the rest of the furler line down the companionway hatch to give it a but of room to run) - just keeping it from knotting up is sometimes a challenge.

Since there's usually only me pulling on ropes (my wife or the autopilot is using driving the boat at this point), I'm usually to be found at the other side of the cockpit working the outhaul, so that's probably the main reason I find this tricky. If you have more crew YMMV.

Regarding the direct handle method, IMHO you don't want to do this when hauling out the sail, as you say, it's a direct drive and although I have no first hand experience, I'm sure if the wind caught the main you'd have difficulty controlling it.

OTOH, I have had to use the drum to bring the sail in (using the drum ratchet this time) and apart from needing to be on the outhaul in the cockpit and the mast at the same time, my main issue is the winch handles I have on board won't do a full 360 deg. without jamming on the other mast hardware. Probably need to shop around for a handle with a bigger 'crank' in it.

Duncan

Sounds like you've got the wrong type of line on your Selden "furling winch". Ours is absolutely positive; never a slip or a jam even under great tension, and our mainsail is quite large, 57m2 (614 square feet).

I don't think you will have good luck with that setup unless you can keep some tension on the furler. If you are handling lines alone, that means your furling lines and your clew outhaul line need to be next to each other.

The other reason it is vital to have a way to keep tension on, besides preventing flogging, is to make sure that the sail rolls in and out without folding on itself. You can't roll in the sail properly with the furling line, if the clew outhaul is out of control and the sail is flapping. You will get a jam. Same with rolling the sail out I think.

[Talbot]

My inmast needed the kicker to be released and allow the boom to rise up in order for the sail to furl neatly.

Furling using a winch is a recipe for bad jams and ripped sails, you need to ensure that you can furl by just pulling on the inhaul.

One time that just hauling in on the inhaul will guarantee a jam, is if you have been sailing with a reef in. I found that the safest way was always to haul the whole sail out, and then reef in to where I needed it.

Verical battens provide significantly better sail shape, but increase the risk of jams unless you take precautions to keep the battens vertical as they go through the slot.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Talbot

Furling using a winch is a recipe for bad jams and ripped sails, you need to ensure that you can furl by just pulling on the inhaul.

Depends on the size. On our boat, with 610 square feet of mainsail, it would be utterly impossible to do it without a winch. The manufacturer of our boat provided a dedicated electric winch for the furling lines and clew outhaul. It is important, however, to feel what's happening, so we don't use the electric drive -- we crank it by hand.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Talbot

My inmast needed the kicker to be released and allow the boom to rise up in order for the sail to furl neatly.

What about your topping lift and mainsheet? Are they all loose when you furl?

We have had problems with the clew outhaul car jamming (that's the original topic of this thread, which has drifted somewhat). We have found that loosening the vang and mainsheet and hauling the boom up somewhat with the topping lift helps, but does not eliminate the problem.

[hummingway]

Mine jams at the last foot or so. I usely give a tap and it slides. I recently sprayed it with dry lube but haven't been out since to see if that helped..

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by sail2wind

Can you add vertical battans or do you need to replace the sail?

A sail designed to be butten-less may not benefit by adding battens. They are needed to support roach area that won't be there in a sail constructed without battens.

[Dockhead]

Problem finally solved. Something no one thought of -- outhaul twisted with the topping lift line inside the boom. Untwisted them, and presto, no more jamming clew car.

[Talbot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Problem finally solved. Something no one thought of -- outhaul twisted with the topping lift line inside the boom. .......

Not thought of because I have never heard of the outhaul being inside the boom. Most people have it rigged similar to the main halyard, such that it can be used as the main hayard if/when necessary.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Talbot

Not thought of because I have never heard of the outhaul being inside the boom. Most people have it rigged similar to the main halyard, such that it can be used as the main hayard if/when necessary.

You mean topping lift, right?

If that's what you meant, then I understand your comment. Our topping lift is a plastic-covered wire rope fixed to the masthead and terminating in a block at the lower end, a meter or so above the highest position of the boom-end. A regular rope goes from the cockpit to the base of the mast to the gooseneck and through the boom to that block, providing a double purchase.

It's a good system (as long as it doesn't get twisted inside the boom!), but I would have very much liked to have the spare halyard function. As my boat is rigged now, I don't have any way to climb the mast with all three sails up -- there's only one extra halyard.