Help me design my RTW loft (Albin Vega 27)

[Snowpetrel]

AV, got any photos of the boat and the rig? She sounds like she has been well equipped.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[AmericanVagrant]

Originally Posted by Weyalan

A couple of thoughts
3 reef main, with the 3rd reef being deep enough that your sail area is equivalent to a trisail is imperative. Just thinking about the logistics of setting a trisail in storm or hurricane conditions gives me the heebie-jeebies. We do carry a trisail, but we would only plan to use it if we broke the main such that it was unusable.

I'd strongly suggest getting an AIS that transmits as well as receives (maybe yours does, I'm not familiar with that model), but having AIS transmitting when crossing busy shipping lanes, at night, in 35 knots of wind and 20' seas was so reassuring...

Good to know, I'll probably add that 3rd reef. As for the AIS transmitter, I agree it's probably a good idea, but out of my budget in terms of dollars and power consumption. I'll have my own system, in addition to a radar reflector (for whatever that's worth). Hopefully it won't be a problem.

Originally Posted by gjordan

Wow, that is a very well equipped boat. If you outfitted it GOOD JOB, if you bought it that way, you bought right, and the previous owner put bucket loads of money into it. I dont mean to start thread drift, but 3/8 chain is very heavy for a 27 foot boat. You already have a lot of gear, and the extra weight of oversize chain may effect the sailing ability, but overall it sounds like a great boat. Congratulations. ____Grant.

Thank you - and I agree that 3/8 is much larger than is necessary. I may search for someone to swap chain with, because 1/4" (or even 5/16") would save weight and space in my tiny chain locker. It's quite the challenge getting it back in there without making trips down below.

The work was mostly done by a previous owner. I purchased my first Albin Vega back in 2014 and began preparing it for my trip. It was lightly used and had aged quite well, but was also severely underprepared for long distance cruising, and would have cost an arm and a leg to do even half the work that my current one has. In 2015, another Vega owner decided to get out of his very well-equipped cruiser. I bought it and sold my original. The new one has a ton of very expensive outfitting, but is a cosmetic wreck. I've been updating some of the systems (fuel tank, outboard, VHF/AIS, head, batteries, solar/wind generation and a few others).

Originally Posted by Butler

Oh, and smart with Cole Stove heater. Even with my fairly limited sailing experience up north I know That dry heat will be a help when things get damp. I have some lengths of chain as well as cable along with shackles, thimbles and some bulldog clamps should I need to deal with a wire broken near to the deck where I can get to it. I also have a good long handled hatchet and a stought pair of cable cutters handy for cutting away a spar and/or wire. Never have had to use them but I have learned how to improvise with wire and clamps etc. on older boats.
Thanks again for the list. Best of luck and many great sailing days!

Good tips! I have been wondering about the cole heater. Haven't had a chance to use it yet, but anticipate it will come in handy. I'm a southern California boy and even the slightest ocean breeze at dusk can send me shivering into the cabin to grab a coat.

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

AV, got any photos of the boat and the rig? She sounds like she has been well equipped.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Here's one from when she was on the hard after first acquiring her. I've done a significant amount of work since, but have yet to paint the topsides or add additional portlights (probably will replicate the original setup using lexan or acrylic). Will also lower the stanchions back to original height (were raised 12").



And another during the sail up from San Diego.



The radar is being relocated to the mast, and wind generator was added in it's place on the pole. I also put solar panels just below it on the pole, and have added a bimini. Here's a photo from today (don't mind the mess, just came in from a weekend trip to Catalina).

[gjordan]

In my Contessa I had 180 foot of 5/16 which 1/4 would have been fine, but it came with the larger chain. You might be able to get a good length of 1/4 into your locker without jamming. Since I started the thread drift, I will add that I would change the under cockpit fuel tank out for the same size water tank. An outboard is pretty useless for other than getting in and out of harbor. Even then, they can be marginal. You can do fine without a motor, but humans dont do well without enough water. Just my opinions!! _____Grant.

[AmericanVagrant]

Update on the sail cache. I've measured out most of them (missing the Drifter, Asym Spinnaker, Trysail and Storm Jib). It seems that the designer of my current loft intentionally reduced the collective Sail Area (Main + Fore).

Below is the spreadsheet. It lists stock SA, current SA and calculated percentages.



Some things I found: The genoa is a bit smaller than a 150% (more like a 135%). I found an additional staysail, 3% larger than the other, which uses a zipper to attach to it's stay.

Some thoughts: I can't say I know exactly why the PO opted for a reduced main, but it may have to do with the fact that some people talk about the Vega sailing best under the first reef. Or it may have had to do with the relocation of the traveller to just aft of the companionway (which would relocate the clew back to the new traveller haul). Or maybe to match the foresails already acquired. Or maybe to make reefing easier. Or maybe because they were adding the staysail, which would make up the lost sail area. Or something else (probably a combination of things).

Whatever the reasons, since the main is already going to be reduced (probably to about the area of the 1st reef), I don't believe I need to add a third. Also, I'll probably stick with the 85% jib, because I assume it'll balance better with the reduced main. I just barely had a stomach for replacing the jibs and genoa, I definitely don't have a desire to do the main as well.

So I'll probably just run what I've got...and leave the inner forestay (or make it a solent) to complete the SA.

[gjordan]

You might want to take a look on the San Francisco craigslist. There is someone selling a whole set of sails for a Vega. I think his prices are way high, but you might compare the measurments with what you have. Just another thought. Grant.

[barnakiel]

You are correct to say with a small main and two reefs you may be OK without the third one. But this works only if the sail is new, heavy (likely to heavy for otherwise use) and the 2nd is deep. If it is so, the 2nd is also to deep for otherwise use.

You do not tell the weight of the sails too. A 150% genoa, you know. Can be the best sail around or a useless thing living in a sailbag, if the canvas is to heavy.

With the main undercut, you will have problem running in light wind (look up my earlier post). 10 sq m is simply a third of what you need to drive her off the wind in light airs.

Because most boats carry only one 'universal' main, you may be tempted to invest in a new, full size main with full battens and some roach. Give it two short reefs (about 3 ft apart) and a third at the point where the trisail area would be. A good sailmaker can build the sail so that the top panels are in slightly heavier cloth than the bottom ones too.

Let us know the weight of the sails as otherwise 150% or 75% does not say anything about how the sail can be used.

b.

[AmericanVagrant]

Originally Posted by gjordan

You might want to take a look on the San Francisco craigslist. There is someone selling a whole set of sails for a Vega. I think his prices are way high, but you might compare the measurments with what you have. Just another thought. Grant.

Thanks Grant! I checked out the ad (Albin Vega Main, Jib, Spinnaker Sails for sale). Oddly enough, his main is even shorter than mine (by a couple inches). The jib is a bit bigger.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

You are correct to say with a small main and two reefs you may be OK without the third one. But this works only if the sail is new, heavy (likely to heavy for otherwise use) and the 2nd is deep. If it is so, the 2nd is also to deep for otherwise use.

You do not tell the weight of the sails too. A 150% genoa, you know. Can be the best sail around or a useless thing living in a sailbag, if the canvas is to heavy.

With the main undercut, you will have problem running in light wind (look up my earlier post). 10 sq m is simply a third of what you need to drive her off the wind in light airs.

Because most boats carry only one 'universal' main, you may be tempted to invest in a new, full size main with full battens and some roach. Give it two short reefs (about 3 ft apart) and a third at the point where the trisail area would be. A good sailmaker can build the sail so that the top panels are in slightly heavier cloth than the bottom ones too.

Let us know the weight of the sails as otherwise 150% or 75% does not say anything about how the sail can be used.

b.

The mainsail is very nearly new, made of 6.68 high mass dacron. The genoa is by Lee and made of 5 oz dacron. I believe the 85% "Blue Stripe Jib" is 6.68 dacron. The Drifter is 1.5 oz

To be honest, though I understand the merits, I don't believe I'll opt for a new mainsail. My calculated sail area does not account for the roach, which is pretty significant with this main (it has full battens). Stock sail area is 297 square feet, and mine w/ current main, 85% jib and smaller staysail would be 298 (w/ conservative estimate of the mainsail roach).

For what's it's worth I've put a decent amount of time on the water with this Vega (without the staysail) and have not noticed it to be worse at any point of sail than my first one.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by AmericanVagrant

(...)

The mainsail is very nearly new, made of 6.68 high mass dacron. The genoa is by Lee and made of 5 oz dacron. I believe the 85% "Blue Stripe Jib" is 6.68 dacron. The Drifter is 1.5 oz

To be honest, though I understand the merits, I don't believe I'll opt for a new mainsail. My calculated sail area does not account for the roach, which is pretty significant with this main (it has full battens). Stock sail area is 297 square feet, and mine w/ current main, 85% jib and smaller staysail would be 298 (w/ conservative estimate of the mainsail roach).

For what's it's worth I've put a decent amount of time on the water with this Vega (without the staysail) and have not noticed it to be worse at any point of sail than my first one.

It sounds like the main-cum-trysail might take up the strain, still you may want to check out the following things:

- the deep reefed 2nd reef area,
- the 2nd reef clew / tack reef patches - these must be as strong as original (full sail) patches ...

The latter is often not the case unless the sail has been custom built or modified for the job.

The genoa in 5 oz may be quite usable, if it is flattish, given the small main.

Another idea by looking at the pictures: if this is your only pole (spinnaker pole) then you will need another - aim at 1.5 of the J. 1.3 J being the bare minimum for poling out downwind sails.

Cheers,
b.

[AmericanVagrant]

Update on the ground tackle: I found that my stern anchor chain is 5/16", so I decided to try it out in my Sea Tiger 555 windlass to see how it'd do.

For the most part, it works just fine with no slipping. What it doesn't do well, is self-release from the gypsy. This may not be an issue, because my Perko deck pipe is not directly below the windlass but instead further forward, so I need to guide it with my free hand anyway.

With this in mind I'll probably use my stern rode (60' 5/16" + 200' 9/16" line) at the bow, and leave the heavier 3/8" at the stern. After some anchoring trials, if the 5/16" proves to work well then I can swap out the 3/8" all together. I also realized that my current gypsy (RCB70) is a combination chain/line, while the one designed for 5/16" (B80) is chain only. Another reason to stick with this gypsy.

[barnakiel]

A windlass on a 27'er?

Are you very small frame or something?

Then again yes if you sail alone this may be the path to take. Handle the engine and tiller while the anchor goes up "all by itself" (well with some helps from the alternator ;-)

You are 100% correct with your stern gear - have something there, at times it is a life saver. And when alone, deploy both - better to hang on to two hooks than one when leaving the boat and exploring the bush.

Stern kit kept on a reel that is rolling on the rail is very nice - it lets you deploy in about 20 seconds. Simple to build with an old marlow ropes reel or similar. In scandinavia tey use webbing on a reel as this stores flat and you need less space.

We used 10 mm (3/8) chain on our stunt but later I downgraded to 8 mm (5/16) while at the same time buying a bigger (33lb) hook.

I like the new setup better as we have more chain length, easier to handle and (IMHO) better holding (bigger flukes area anyways).

Cheers,
b.

[AmericanVagrant]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

A windlass on a 27'er?

Are you very small frame or something?

Then again yes if you sail alone this may be the path to take. Handle the engine and tiller while the anchor goes up "all by itself" (well with some helps from the alternator ;-)

You are 100% correct with your stern gear - have something there, at times it is a life saver. And when alone, deploy both - better to hang on to two hooks than one when leaving the boat and exploring the bush.

Stern kit kept on a reel that is rolling on the rail is very nice - it lets you deploy in about 20 seconds. Simple to build with an old marlow ropes reel or similar. In scandinavia tey use webbing on a reel as this stores flat and you need less space.

We used 10 mm (3/8) chain on our stunt but later I downgraded to 8 mm (5/16) while at the same time buying a bigger (33lb) hook.

I like the new setup better as we have more chain length, easier to handle and (IMHO) better holding (bigger flukes area anyways).

Cheers,
b.

The windlass was on the boat when I purchased it. One of the PO's was an older dude, and apparently having trouble heaving in the 3/8" chain and 26 lbs Spade anchor. It's a manual, not sure how useful I'll find it. It's a heavy piece of kit, but I'm sure nice to have around on an extended journey.

After some trial anchoring I'm going to evaluate the utility of the windlass. Shoot the stock displacement of the Albin Vega is only 5000 lbs. Even if I'm loaded for a long cruise, 1/4" HT should be all that I need, which would make pulling in by hand a simple feat.

I have been looking a bit at those flat line anchor reels like the Quickline and Ankarolina. The Quickline is prohibitively expensive but not so with the Ankarolina. Might give one a go.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by AmericanVagrant

The windlass was on the boat when I purchased it. One of the PO's was an older dude, and apparently having trouble heaving in the 3/8" chain and 26 lbs Spade anchor. It's a manual, not sure how useful I'll find it. It's a heavy piece of kit, but I'm sure nice to have around on an extended journey.

After some trial anchoring I'm going to evaluate the utility of the windlass. Shoot the stock displacement of the Albin Vega is only 5000 lbs. Even if I'm loaded for a long cruise, 1/4" HT should be all that I need, which would make pulling in by hand a simple feat.

I have been looking a bit at those flat line anchor reels like the Quickline and Ankarolina. The Quickline is prohibitively expensive but not so with the Ankarolina. Might give one a go.

Mate it is just plain polyester webbing. Tubular is best IMHO. Buy stock off the reel and you are as fine as with Ankorlina and other re-branders. Sure use some chain as a lead. About a boat's length is ok for light-use stern hook.

My main problem with manual windlasses is SLOW. I noticed whenever I wished for a winch (e.g. in Tahiti) , I wished for a blazing fast one. And operated from the cockpit, not from the fore. Don't have one yet, but then again I am not all that old, yet.

Last thing, do NOT go TOO SMALL size with chain, even if you may afford G7 ... the reason is try to handle 1/4 then try to handle 5/16 UNDER HEAVY LOAD ... then make up your mind.

For the same reason any anchor line less that 16 mm is a no & no - strong enough maybe but real hard on the hands when wet and tight.

Our kit was: a 22-pounder and 60' of 3/8 + multiplait 16 mm.

Our kit is: a 33-pounder and 100' of 5/16 + multiplait.

If we were to go again the only mod I could possibly make is to step up G7 from G4 and add length. Still stick with 5/16. This would be an overkill BUT I think ground tackle is one of the few areas where I could live with that.

Cheers,
b.