Changing Old School Sail Plan

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Exactly. This.

Right.

He mentioned adding a bowsprit. No way!

The weather helm isn't that big of a deal but the boom does seem monstrous.

And as I have mentioned many other boats of this type have mainsails with a slightly shorter foot.

I certainly don't believe shorting the foot of the mainsail by 11"-13" would hurt while increasing the luff a foot or so.

My luff is 25.5'. Sailrite and Bacon sails has it at 28' so you can get away with some slight changes.

I won't be changing hardware or redesigning the boat but may if I find a deal like the one I missed at Bacon Sails of a mainsail with a foot 10.8' or so and luff at 26.5' buy it and use it for a few years

[thomm225]

Btw, thanks for all the inputs.

It helps me to get a better picture of the over all effect of a small change.

My last beach cat that I raced was for single handers but also had a spinnaker.

Letting go of the helm to get the spinnaker down at the downwind mark in traffic could get complicated so most of us had our helms set almost to neutral with just a tad weather helm. We did this with mast rake and rudder rake,

Btw the booms on those boats Nacra F-17's (I-17R back then) was like 6' long. Mainsail had a very high aspect ratio as it's luff was 30'-31' with a 6' or so boom

[malbert73]

Sorry when I said “this”
I meant the stretched out sails with sagging draft is the issue. I used to own a Luders 33 on the Chesapeake and no way would I reduce sail area by shortening the foot. That area is really helpful reaching and downwind.
Don’t overthink it- get a sail that fits your rig that isn’t blown out and your weather helm issue will likely be fixed. Removing 1-2 feet from foot isn’t likely as helpful, and will make your boat much slower off the wind and in light air

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Sorry when I said “this”
I meant the stretched out sails with sagging draft is the issue. I used to own a Luders 33 on the Chesapeake and no way would I reduce sail area by shortening the foot. That area is really helpful reaching and downwind.
Don’t overthink it- get a sail that fits your rig that isn’t blown out and your weather helm issue will likely be fixed. Removing 1-2 feet from foot isn’t likely as helpful, and will make your boat much slower off the wind and in light air

Thanks for the input but maybe I didn't explain this correctly.

I don't have a weather helm issue.

My sail is still good. I just think the foot is extraordinary long.

As far as light air, I learned sailing in mid Mississippi where a 10 knot breeze was big wind! I don't sail much in light air if I can avoid it and have even started to motorsail in light winds which is totally new to me as this is my 6th sailboat and first with an engine (a 5hp outboard)

As far as reduced sail area, sometimes I have wished I could reduce it more. It , the main, only has one set of reef points as recommended by the sailmaker since I was sailing in the Chesapeake Bay.

Problem is I like to pick "good" wind days for crossings. Made the 20 mile south crossing in the first video in 3 hours and nothing got broken except the dodger frame (breaking waves) and the bow lights (too much time under water) I was lucky though the winds didn't increase 5-6 knots more as I would have been in trouble most likely

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nXfjcCuiPk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3I2zc0_7wY

[malbert73]

Well, suit yourself. I think every mainsail should have 2 reefs for coastal and inshore and 3 for serious offshore
I think a shorter main on same boom would look “off” and if you shorten boom then you have to move mainsheet.
To me the designed sailplan looks normal. Maybe your foot looks extra long because your sail is short ?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Well, suit yourself. I think every mainsail should have 2 reefs for coastal and inshore and 3 for serious offshore
I think a shorter main on same boom would look “off” and if you shorten boom then you have to move mainsheet.
To me the designed sailplan looks normal. Maybe your foot looks extra long because your sail is short ?
Attachment 248525

Could be that. Or that my last high tech racing beach cats had the hi-aspect ratio mains and I got used to the look.

I was looking into getting another set of reef points but since the sail will be 10 years old in Spring I decided to wait. I only had that one event where I needed two sets of reef points and even then not sure I would have had them in anyway. And I couldn't go forward to put second reef in when it became apparent I should have earlier because I couldn't leave the helm without the boat rounding up which would have been bad. Some of the waves early on near the shipping channel were 7'-8' , very closely space, steep and breaking. My boat sits quite low in the water also.

Plus for a new UV cover on the jib and the reef points the price was approaching $1,000.

Forecast was for 22 knots but ended up mid 30's plus tide against wind. I sailed out of a nice anchorage but after getting total clear of land the wind was coming hard down the bay and the waves were huge and breaking over the sides into the boat. I had to grab my harness and put the hatch boards.

I di see boats from time to time with the shorter foot though as pictured.

[malbert73]

My Luders had that triangle mainsheet which I also think is terrible for upwind in light air when you want more twist, and in breeze when you want to drop the traveler. I found a used traveler and installed it aft of cockpit and it made a huge difference

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by malbert73

My Luders had that triangle mainsheet which I also think is terrible for upwind in light air when you want more twist, and in breeze when you want to drop the traveler. I found a used traveler and installed it aft of cockpit and it made a huge difference

I've completed so many drifter races even 100 milers on beach cats that I have no problem with this new light air method I discovered once I bought this old monohull and a reliable engine that sips fuel

Crossing the 20 mile lower bay on a Sunday morning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpZhq35etcw

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I have the boom and mainsail quite high on this light wind day maybe 5 years ago and still the main is a foot below the top of the mast.

You can also see the boom stopper screw about a foot below where the boom is in the video.

Really? Well that could be a problem for performance. It sounds like your main was built with a high boom in mind, so folks don't bump their heads. In my case when the main is all the way at the top I can still bump my head on the boom, or vice versa. (And I keep mine down from the top enough to avoid to avoid battens hanging up on the backstay. I have a helmet) I know others are saying keep the big main, the way it is designed, which I agree with, but downwind, unless it is light, I find less main (or no main when it pipes up) is fine for control and less rolling in our old skinny hulls.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Really? Well that could be a problem for performance. It sounds like your main was built with a high boom in mind, so folks don't bump their heads. In my case when the main is all the way at the top I can still bump my head on the boom, or vice versa. (And I keep mine down from the top enough to avoid to avoid battens hanging up on the backstay. I have a helmet) I know others are saying keep the big main, the way it is designed, which I agree with, but downwind, unless it is light, I find less main (or no main when it pipes up) is fine for control and less rolling in our old skinny hulls.

My battens never hit the backstay so when the breeze is light I can have the boom higher.

One this day, I probably just raised the main too high which pulled the boom up too much and I just tightened the downhull and didn't worry about it.

It wouldn't make that much difference in performance anyway.

These days I try and have it as low as possible just clearing the top of the dodger. In this position, the boom is maybe 7" about the original stop which supports a 28' luff.

My main's luff is 25.5' The sailmaker came out and measured for the main's luff with the boom in position just above the dodger then decided to go with the sailboatdata.com site sail plan stats for some reason.

I accepted the short sail anyway thinking at least I'd have plenty of room to tighten the luff even when the sail got old.

The original main was so old and stretched out you couldn't get the luff tight.

[Happ]

Sail plans were designed specifically for those boats. These boats had what was called a Low Aspect Ratio. Race Boats today have High Aspect Ratio sail plans. Hulls were built to rules in their day. In a cruising boat you reef often because you take out a lot of sail area in one reef. Less in a High Aspect Ratio. If you are feeling to much weather helm there are. Things to look at. First are you over trimmed. Second is to drop the traveler sometimes only one or 2 inches. The third thing ids to ease the boomvang and cause some twist in the leach. If those aren’t enough it’s time to reef. Keep in mind with any boat putting the boat on a heel that maximizes the waterline will give you the best speed. The balance is in the trade off between speed and comfort.

[lo2jones]

Yeah, whoever said it. Unless you make the mast taller, you’re mainly reducing sail area.

[PhilipL]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Has anyone with an old school long boom boat ever ordered a new main with a shorter foot?

As we know, many experts say to have a larger jib to offset the weather helm caused by these old long booms.

If I keep my boat, it will need new sails soon so I was just thinking.....

It appears this Contessa 26 owner has bought and installed such a sail with a shorter foot than the original

Old school headsails were very big, I thought. Hard work to haul them in each tack. I have a large main with a long boom. I just reef early.

[Cheechako]

Do you have too much weather helm? It's about design more than "old school" Then sure do it a bit. Dont over do it though. Or get some of the roach out of the new main. Maybe go battenless.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Happ

Sail plans were designed specifically for those boats. These boats had what was called a Low Aspect Ratio. Race Boats today have High Aspect Ratio sail plans. Hulls were built to rules in their day. In a cruising boat you reef often because you take out a lot of sail area in one reef. Less in a High Aspect Ratio. If you are feeling to much weather helm there are. Things to look at. First are you over trimmed. Second is to drop the traveler sometimes only one or 2 inches. The third thing ids to ease the boomvang and cause some twist in the leach. If those aren’t enough it’s time to reef. Keep in mind with any boat putting the boat on a heel that maximizes the waterline will give you the best speed. The balance is in the trade off between speed and comfort.

I don’t feel any weather helm as most all steering is done by the autopilot once I’m undocked and out the fairway into the creek.

My last 2 racing boats had high aspect ratio sails, rudders, and dagger boards

On those boat I adjusted mast and rudder rake for the amount of weather helm I wanted