Changing Old School Sail Plan

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

It's not so much out of proportion as just a different design philosophy. They didn't necessarily have the ability to make a tall, high aspect rig sturdy enough at the time (or didn't trust that they could), so they made the rig longer instead to get the desired size. It does look weird compared to a modern rig, much like a gaff rig looks strange in comparison. But it's not necessarily bad or wrong, just different.

Yeah, so it will mainly depend on if I see something close (main sail) I can make work like the guy did in the photo with the Catalina sail

Plus I like those full (luff to leech) battens.

I also have 2.5' of luff room to play with on a new/different sail's luff. I'd just have to get a more compact dodger which I may want anyway since mine has this ancient huge aluminum frame.

If i keep the boat and cruise on it additions will be:

Replacement/New Main and Jib
New rigging
AIS Transceiver (have receive only now)
Echomax Active XS Radar Reflector with alarm
Bilge alarm
Fix Manual Bilge Pump
Compost head or removeable one with larger holding
Mount all solar controllers and secure wiring
Secure batteries and battery connections better
Possibly epoxy over closed seacocks/thruhulls externally

[thomm225]

So as I suspected it appears the newer the boat the more high aspect ratio the mainsail seems to have.

Someone in a post above mentioned my knowledge of beach cats since I raced them for so long and this is where I first noticed the trend having owned and raced 4 different ones over a 15 year period..

My Hobie 16's had a mainsail luff of about 26.5' and a 9' foot. First built 1969

Then came Nacra 6.0 with mainsail luff about 27' and foot 7.8' (it had no boom) First built 1988

Finally Nacra I17R mainsail luff 29.6' and foot about 6.5' . First built 2001.

Same with old full keel boats.

Bristol 27 mainsail 28' luff and 12.3' foot on mainsail. First built 1966.

Cape Dory 27 Luff 30.5' mainsail foot 11.5. First built 1977.

Definitely a trend so as my main is a bit short I'm thinking 26.5 ' - 27' luff to clear the dodger and 11.4' foot for a bit more high aspect ratio on the sail

It appears by this trend that they just didn't know any better or were restricted by race rules

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by thomm225

It appears by this trend that they just didn't know any better or were restricted by race rules

Probably a combination of those, and lower aspect rigs being cheaper / easier to build strong enough, particularly before all of the modern materials, construction methods, and computer modeling were available.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Probably a combination of those, and lower aspect rigs being cheaper / easier to build strong enough, particularly before all of the modern materials, construction methods, and computer modeling were available.

Speaking of that, my last beach cat was a Nacra I17R (precursor to today's Nacra F-17) which had a carbon fiber mast of about 30' and square top Technora mainsail with a very high aspect ratio as did the boards and rudders

Plus it had a spinnaker and was built for single handers to race on, and I bought the optional small jib also for light air distance races. (and took the mod hit. You couldn't use it in the one design buoy races)

I should have gotten a furler for it though because once the winds exceeded about 12 knots I was over powered and would many times pitchpole and unless I could right the boay quickly my race would be over.

Number 124 pictured is me on my boat. Just found it!

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/nacra-17

[rslifkin]

Honestly, I feel like you might be better served with a faster boat. Not an all out race boat, but more like the fastest thing that's still sturdy enough to make you happy. You'd probably enjoy the rig and performance more, and there are a lot of faster boats out there that can still go through a heck of a lot and come out in 1 piece.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Honestly, I feel like you might be better served with a faster boat. Not an all out race boat, but more like the fastest thing that's still sturdy enough to make you happy. You'd probably enjoy the rig and performance more, and there are a lot of faster boats out there that can still go through a heck of a lot and come out in 1 piece.

You might be right.

I just found a picture of me racing my boat early 2000's! Crazy while doing a search for Nacra I17R. (Pensacola Bay)

Looks pretty sporty and I haven't rounded the upwind mark yet for the second time and raised the spinnaker. That must have been a fast downwind leg that day. I have the mast way rotated trying to depower.

Looks like the spinnaker is fouled also and I didn't get it all the way in.

This is during the Nationals in 2004. We raced the whole week. The one with the my black spinnaker up is when I had just crossed the start finish line and laid the hull back down and slowed down

The picture with the two boats is nice also but I was 2nd different day different spinnaker not good.

I can see the teal blue wet suit I used to wear which was quite ugly but given to me so I wore it. It was my old spinnaker so I may have ripped the other one in those winds the days before

[Pauls]

There are sound reasons to use a lower aspect rig. High aspect rigs are more efficient beating into the wind. As you fall off the wind lower aspect rigs create more driving force per square foot of sail area. This difference is not minor.

A rig with an aspect ratio of 1 (ie low aspect gaff rig) will create (from memory) 1.86X the driving force of a same area sail with an aspect ratio of 6 (reference Marchaj "Sail Performance" and also "Seaworthiness").

High aspect rigs are significantly less efficient off the wind (ie reaching) than the lower aspect rigs. High aspect rigs are used on race boats to lessen time on the windward leg. Off the wind race boats will set other reaching/downwind sails. For a cruising boat which you want to drive with her working sails lower aspect has much to recommend it.

The idea that because certain design features are used on race boats then they must be superior for other boats is frequently not true. All design features are trade offs, each with its own strengths and weaknesses. They should be chosen as regards which is best for a particular application.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

And mate, if how it looks compared to the sails of your racing cats is important to you, don't bother us with technical queries on sail design!

Jim

Why not maybe you will learn a few things along the way.

Just found these old race photos of me on my boat.

I got second here and you can see how close the racing used to be at times.

Found these just a few minutes ago from around 2002-2004

Now even though I'm headed toward 70 I may need a faster boat.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Pauls

There are sound reasons to use a lower aspect rig. High aspect rigs are more efficient beating into the wind. As you fall off the wind lower aspect rigs create more driving force per square foot of sail area. This difference is not minor.

A rig with an aspect ratio of 1 (ie low aspect gaff rig) will create (from memory) 1.86X the driving force of a same area sail with an aspect ratio of 6 (reference Marchaj "Sail Performance" and also "Seaworthiness").

High aspect rigs are significantly less efficient off the wind (ie reaching) than the lower aspect rigs. High aspect rigs are used on race boats to lessen time on the windward leg. Off the wind race boats will set other reaching/downwind sails. For a cruising boat which you want to drive with her working sails lower aspect has much to recommend it.

The idea that because certain design features are used on race boats then they must be superior for other boats is frequently not true. All design features are trade offs, each with its own strengths and weaknesses. They should be chosen as regards which is best for a particular application.

Thanks for that info.

And it makes sense especially since when racing the first leg is usually upwind and it's very important to win that leg or be close to the front so efficiency upwind is very important anytime when racing........but cruising as I have learned these past 10 years is different with different requirements

A slight bit of a higher aspect ratio mainsail isn't going to help my Bristol 27 point much better anyway, but I don't want to lose power off the wind.

I probably shouldn't be worried about how it looks anyway. And I already have to reefing pulleys installed and in position on the boom for the proper sail size.

That's a long boom though. Picture is of my Bristol 27 in 2011 at the boatyard where I found it after I had cleaned it up and painted the bottom.

Notice the dinghy davits which I shouldn't have thrown away! At that time I thought I'd own this "starter monohull" for a year or two

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Why not maybe you will learn a few things along the way.

Just found these old race photos of me on my boat.

I got second here and you can see how close the racing used to be at times.

Found these just a few minutes ago from around 2002-2004

Now even though I'm headed toward 70 I may need a faster boat.

Thomm, my point is that if the aesthetic appearance of the sail is very important to you, as indicated in your earlier posts in the thread, then asking about technical differences between aspect ratios, etc, becomes moot.

We are well aware of your past life as a beach cat racer, and we understand that they sport high aspect rigs and fancy masts and such things. What I don't understand is why that matters when discussing the design of a sail for your current boat.

And yep, I often learn new things perusing posts on CF, and am glad to do so. I didn't learn much from your photos.

Jim

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Thomm, my point is that if the aesthetic appearance of the sail is very important to you, as indicated in your earlier posts in the thread, then asking about technical differences between aspect ratios, etc, becomes moot.

We are well aware of your past life as a beach cat racer, and we understand that they sport high aspect rigs and fancy masts and such things. What I don't understand is why that matters when discussing the design of a sail for your current boat.

And yep, I often learn new things perusing posts on CF, and am glad to do so. I didn't learn much from your photos.

Jim

The photos were a part of my earlier point/posts about the changes in mainsails.

That over the years you can see a progressive change toward the higher aspect ratio evolve.

Photos demonstrates that point not only with the main but also the flat, small high aspect spinnaker

The Nacra I17R first sold in around 2001.

Hobie 16 first sold 1969.

Funny thing is as poster Pauls pointed out the high aspect setup is great for upwind but maybe not so much off the wind.

The Nacra with it's high aspect sails and daggerboards probably sails 15-20 degrees closer to the wind than the old Hobie 16 with it asymmetrical hulls and no boards, but the Hobie can still hit 26 knots slightly off the wind so in some distances races when they get the right wind they are near the front for a while

Btw my old boat the Nacra I17R became todays Nacra F-17 or just Nacra 17. Checkout the bow changes and of course lifting boards. Plus they turned it into a two man boat using the jib which used to be optional

Sail plan though looks quite the same

Notice those diamond wires off the spreaders. I raced for years before learning about the proper prebend or diamond wire tension which some guys would change between races if the winds were changing! Talk about driven / competitive. You can imagine the craziness on a crowded starting line with 20-30 boats of the same design trying to get an edge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=738Egn3VuvI

[Don C L]

Thomm, have you ever considered a nice, big (sort of), fast trimaran, like a Newick perhaps?
If it were me I'd get this one...
https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/60541

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Thomm, have you ever considered a nice, big (sort of), fast trimaran, like a Newick perhaps?
If it were me I'd get this one...
https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/60541

Thanks for the suggestion. I've thought about that or a Corsair, but I think at my age the Bristol 27 or similar monohull 29'-34' is fine. Especially for the type cruising I'm doing now and will be doing in the future.

Plus if I'm going to get caught in winds 40 knots or more single handed, I want some real ballast and a way I can stop and rest if necessary should the weather last more than a few hours

Those pictures of me above are from almost 20 years ago. Different time; different me but I learned a lot racing beach cats and have learned a lot cruising this old boat and getting caught in open water in the largest seas and wind I have ever been out in for hours on end.

Other times I've had to stay anchored and wait out the bad weather which is also a new thing I had to learn .......patience

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Thanks for the suggestion. I've thought about that or a Corsair, but I think at my age the Bristol 27 or similar monohull 29'-34' is fine. Especially for the type cruising I'm doing now and will be doing in the future.

Plus if I'm going to get caught in winds 40 knots or more single handed, I want some real ballast and a way I can stop and rest if necessary should the weather last more than a few hours

Those pictures of me above are from almost 20 years ago. Different time; different me but I learned a lot racing beach cats and have learned a lot cruising this old boat and getting caught in open water in the largest seas and wind I have ever been out in for hours on end.

Other times I've had to stay anchored and wait out the bad weather which is also a new thing I had to learn .......patience

I agree you'd definitely want enough ballast. But there are plenty of much faster boats that have plenty of ballast down low. And on any boat, having it rigged to be able to reduce sail easily while single handed will make your life much more pleasant when conditions turn ugly.

It looks like your Bristol is about 39% ballast by weight. Plenty of other boats are in that ballpark (and with a deeper keel, so better righting moment for the same ballast).

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I agree you'd definitely want enough ballast. But there are plenty of much faster boats that have plenty of ballast down low. And on any boat, having it rigged to be able to reduce sail easily while single handed will make your life much more pleasant when conditions turn ugly.

It looks like your Bristol is about 39% ballast by weight. Plenty of other boats are in that ballpark (and with a deeper keel, so better righting moment for the same ballast).

The Bristol 27 is only 8' wide so has a better righting moment than most boats with the ballast it has.

Capsize screening formula is 1.71 which is better than the Contessa 32. (haven't figure the AVS though) In stronger winds upwind I let it heel many times as far as it wants without correcting. see below when a front came in dropping the temp by 20 degrees. I still haven't gotten my shirt back on but do have on my harness. I didn't reef the main just furled in some of the jib and made a run for Mobjack Bay which you can just see the headland to it in the distance

After having flipped and /or pitchpoled beach cats a lot I know that as the boat heels over lots of wind is dumped out of the sails and you have quite a bit of time to correct and now having a boat with real ballast about 2600 lbs you have even more time

As far as another boat, have you looked on Yacht World etc lately? All the boats are being bought up. It's ridiculous.

Plus I still don't know how long I can actually or would actually want to be stuck on a boat.

When I retire in 2-3 years I plan to do a few two week cruises and see how it goes. First up and down the 150 miles of Chesapeake Bay crisscrossing back and forth then down the ICW to Oriental and Morehead City and coming back on the outside round the Outer Banks after a few days at Cape Lookout

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3I2zc0_7wY