Adding a cutter rig / sloop to cutter conversion

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by StuM

How do you hoist the main past a loop around the mast?

Killjoy!

Jim

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by xslim

Interesting, is there any mast fitting that "clamps" around a mast and provide fitting for both a stay and back runners ?
Such fittings exist, & are off the shelf available from some spar makers. Though it's easy enough to have one custom made as well, as has been done by many a member on this forum. They wrap around about 180 deg. of the spar, & attach either with through bolts, machine screws, rivets, or a combination of same.

What about dyneema loop around mast few times over the spreaders?

Few spreader fittings are designed for loads in such directions, & would fail in short order. Is actually doing a bit of searching here on CF on the topic, as well as via spar maker's & rigging websites too much to ask? It is your project, so it would make sense to want to make the best, most informed choices about it that you can. Which would involve studying on the topic, as well as asking questions about what options are available.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Here are a few thinks, to add to the below posted options for heavier air jibs. Especially for those less familiar with configuring rigs & sail plans, & the reasons behind various styles & designs of same. Or those who are unaware of some of the hardware, sail, & rigging setups which can be incorporated into their additon to a vessel.

Originally Posted by Dave22q

I would assume that making a sloop into a cutter by adding a fore-stay is unlikely to be a good thing unless blessed by a good marine designer. However, the thread brings up a thought I have had for a while. My roller reefed jib makes a poor storm sail. I have thought about mounting a removable wire fore-stay and halyard a foot or two below the fore-stay so that in storm conditions I could mount and tension the stay and hoist a small storm sail. Has anybody tried a rig like this?

The above pretty much describes a Solent Stay. Albeit you can use synthetic rigging instead of wire for the stay if you prefer. Such as (Dyneema) Dux for example. And how far aft you attach the stay at the deck level is up to you. Depends on where you want the sail's center of effort (CE) to be, & how you wish to connect the stay to something that has sufficient structural reinforcement belowdecks. However, the positon of the sail's CE can be greatly moved around to positive effect by how the sail is shaped while it's still in the design stage. Be it a tall, high aspect ratio one, or the reverse. Along with how high off of the deck it's flown.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Use a Highfield lever. Extremely common arrangement, almost universal in the UK among sloop rigged boats used for any serious offshore sailing. You would want the removable inner forestay to be more than a foot or two below the masthead, however, in order to get the center of effort of the storm jib down and back. Put it where the normal inner forestay would go -- that is, opposite where the head of the mainsail is when it is reefed to its deepest position. That way the removable inner forestay will also help balance the loads from the deeply reefed mainsail, in a blow.

This opposing the pull of the main's headboard IS important on many boats, since the forces generated by the main in this spot will be trying to invert the mast. Which certainly is something to avoid.

If you want to really do it right, add running backstays, but I have seen lots of boats, including several Oysters, which were rigged like that from the factory, with no runners.

Much of this depends upon the stiffness of the spar section (mast tube) in relation to the forces it will see. And runners do as much to stabiize the mast so that it doesn't pump as you slam though waves, as they do to assist in tensioning a cutter stay. Thus giving you good sail shape for going to windward, & in keeping it's shape flat, so as to minimize it's heeling forces.

On the majority of boats over say 35', it's often not possible to get sufficient stay tension using a Hyfield lever alone. Given that you may require several thousand pounds of static tension on the stay, especially given that it'll be being used for a high wind jib. Thus requiring a tight stay to achieve good sail shape, particularly if it's to be used at all for upwind work.

There are lots of other ways of tensioning (& attaching) such stays, in addition to using runners in conjunction with them. Albeit runners are far from mandatory, & if one attaches the stay near the masthead, this is even more the case.

Other ways of connecting & tensioning inner forestays include; geared, ratcheting mechanisms, turnbuckles with built in handles or hand wheels, hydraulic cylinders, multi-part purchases, etc. All work well when properly sized, & also have the benefit of being able to adjust the amount of tension on the stay with the stay in place, unlike Hyfield levers. Which is sometimes quite a big benefit. Especially as other tuning controls on the rig get adjusted to suit changing conditions.
Some examples of such offerings can be seen via Wichard, Harken, & Colligo Marine, to name but a few.

Also, these kinds of adjusters can still be connected if the rig is already partially tuned for heavy weather. Such as when the backstay is already heavily cranked on. A situation that can make it tough, or impossible to attach a Hyfield lever to the stay without first slackening the rig. Which isn't always a wise choice, or necessarily even an option, in moderate to heavy weather.

Also, as I aluded to above, much of what sort of drive a sail generates is based on where it's CE is located. And on a boat with a smaller foretriangle, the difference in the CE between a sail on a Solent Stay, & a Cutter Stay needn't be particularly large. Especially with a sail shaped (cut) by the loft to allow for this.

Plus, a "Solent Stay" can have it's lower end attached to the deck in the "Cutter Stay" position (or even be configured to be attached to either location, or both - see my links in a post further above). As the sail won't much be able to tell the difference where the head of the stay is attached to the spar, when it comes to it's performance. Assuming that is, that it's cut properly for shape & center of effort.

One other key thing to bear in mind is that even on metal boats, stays & even sometimes jib tracks, can't necessarily be mounted wherever you please, to the deck. As the loads exerted by them are often quite substantial. Thus requiring tying them to bulkheads, frames, substantial beams, & or, even to the keel or stem via belowdecks rigging. In the exact same way that shroud chainplates/shroud tie rods get attached to significant belowdecks structural components of a vessel.

[Nikki S]

finding this very interesting. had a rigging survey on our 49 ft sloop recently. The rigger recommended changing to a cutter rig as we do need to replace the lot if we want bluewater insurance (which we need if we are to join a particular rally we were interested in joining).... but our mast is so much more forward than a cutter, that I cant quite envisage the benefit. We sail single/double handed pretty easily with our massive Genoa because of electric winches: just furl in the heady a bit as required.... Our main problem is going downwind in winds less than 25kts. Seem to have spent the last 2 months bobbing around like a cork, goosewinged in the trade winds up the east coast of Australia. Oh yeah, that's right, we need a spinnaker.... now it's been 23 years since i put up a spinnaker and that was on 12ft dinghy. How hard is it to manage a spinnaker single handed?

[xslim]

I have a 1000 sq ft Assimetrical spinnaker with a sock - no problem in managing.
But first, practice in very low wind pulling the sock down.

There are also spinnaker furlers....

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Nikki S

finding this very interesting. had a rigging survey on our 49 ft sloop recently. The rigger recommended changing to a cutter rig as we do need to replace the lot if we want bluewater insurance (which we need if we are to join a particular rally we were interested in joining).... but our mast is so much more forward than a cutter, that I cant quite envisage the benefit. We sail single/double handed pretty easily with our massive Genoa because of electric winches: just furl in the heady a bit as required.... Our main problem is going downwind in winds less than 25kts. Seem to have spent the last 2 months bobbing around like a cork, goosewinged in the trade winds up the east coast of Australia. Oh yeah, that's right, we need a spinnaker.... now it's been 23 years since i put up a spinnaker and that was on 12ft dinghy. How hard is it to manage a spinnaker single handed?

Regarding re-rigging, I always suggest to everyone that when their mast is down, to add an extra sheave box or halyard block, along with a nose (beak, or tang) for an extra halyard & stay. That way later on if they decided that they want one, there's no need to drop the rig again to install it. And along with this, it's also good practice to run an extra (spare) set of electrical wires or two, up to the masthead. Pretty much for the same reasons. In case you want to add something later, so that you needn't drop the spar to install everything.

As to solent stays, vs. cutter stays, & their utility, re-read this post, along with the links therein http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2422115

And on kites, there are so many variables to what you're asking that it warrants a seperate thread. Plus adding a dozen posts on kites to this thread will be way OT.
The one caveat to this though is that if one adds a Solent Stay, then it becomes quite easy to fly a double headsail rig downwind, using your jib on the furler, plus a sail hanked onto the Solent Stay. Or you can just hank a huge drifter onto the Solent Stay by itself. Either way it makes for simple downwind sailing, as you don't have to wrestle with a kite. Not that I'm not a spinnaker fan. Quite the contrary. But that's kind of in my DNA, given that I've been, & at times still am, a pro racer.

[Cavalier]

Originally Posted by StuM

How do you hoist the main past a loop around the mast?

Pah! Simply cut a hole in the main so the loop can pass through ;-)

Sent from mTalk

[masterov]

Hey Xlim!

I am curious if you've actually implemented this project?

Originally Posted by xslim

Hi guys,

I do have currently a removable inner forestay that I can put a hank-on Jib (100%, self tacking) or a storm jib. I use the jib time to time when I predict the wind to be some what stronger.

Also, I wanted to ask you: how do you hoist the hank-on jib? What do you use for a halyard? Can you take a photo of how it is set up?

I have a baby-stay, which I thought of using for a storm-jib, but it does not have a halyard.

Thanks,
Alexei

[double u]

masterov, isn't your babystay just to induce mastbend? if so the chainplate would need some beefing up or tie-rod/wire to take a storm-jib load

[masterov]

Originally Posted by double u

masterov, isn't your babystay just to induce mastbend? if so the chainplate would need some beefing up or tie-rod/wire to take a storm-jib load

yep, you are right. I don't think this idea is going to work.

[xslim]

Originally Posted by masterov

Hey Xlim!

I am curious if you've actually implemented this project?

Also, I wanted to ask you: how do you hoist the hank-on jib? What do you use for a halyard?

I am implementing it slowly

as we speak, changing the windlass to electrical and welding on a Staysail support to the "old chain locker" bulkhead. I am thinking to use dyneema as a stay.

On the mast, I am thinking on possibility to loop a dyneema thru openings where a T-tangs are attached.

[xslim]

Bottom chainplate / support for staysail.

[Psy at SEA]

the fwd pad eye ....with rope attached?



or the pipe bracket welded?

[chowdan]

Got any updates on how its going?

[Weaser]

Hi All,

I've been reading all the questions, answers and suggestions about the sloop to cutter conversions. I have a 43' Morgan CC sloop. My mast came with an attachment point for an inner halyard. I also have a large cleat where the inner halyard would attach to the deck. I have seen photos of my model boat with cutter rigs. My question is, did Morgan offer this as an optional rig?

Thanks
Weaser