Acera vs Dyneema & Jordan Series Drogues

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Lock stitching splices is pretty much the norm, so I'm uncertain why it's being stressed so much....

Uncivilized, you forget that folks like me are reading this, and lock-stitching double-braid is not something I'd ever considered (though now it's mentioned I see even my dinghy painter has been locked this way!). Never be afraid to make allowances for us total dumasses reading this stuff.

[Lantau]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Uncivilized, you forget that folks like me are reading this, and lock-stitching double-braid is not something I'd ever considered (though now it's mentioned I see even my dinghy painter has been locked this way!). Never be afraid to make allowances for us total dumasses reading this stuff.

Just to be clear, what I mean is a splice that is both locked, by weaving the rope in and out of itself two or more times (the standard lock, but I've seen it overlooked completely), AND stitched, quite literally the old-fashioned way with twine (marine-grade stuff). I think the latter is needed for when the splice is not under load, to keep it all together. And of course if you can keep any of it from creeping, when it does get under load it locks itself all together. If there's any doubt, try undoing a Dyneema splice that's not stitched. It's really easy, sometimes scarily easy, when you remove the load, at least before the stuff has a chance to settle in under load over time (and actually roughing it up a bit through use, which happens anyway, seems to make the splice stronger, weirdly). Again, this is for a drogue, which may go years without any use at all, probably will be tossed in and out of lockers, maybe even to different boats. The whole point is to have a super-strong system that is totally reliable.

But that's just my opinion.

[NevisDog]

Umm - next dumass question: we are talking double-braid here for drogues, aren't we? Not that flimsy, loose, single-braid type 'Dyneema' with no core at all???

And next: those brummel splices - they are just for single-braid? No???

[Benz]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Umm - next dumass question: we are talking double-braid here for drogues, aren't we? Not that flimsy, loose, single-braid type 'Dyneema' with no core at all???

And next: those brummel splices - they are just for single-braid? No???

They're talking about uncovered Dyneema. Single braid, but certainly not loose or flimsy. And no core--usually if it's a double braid with Dyneema, the Dyneema is the core, as it bears the load. If it's covered Dyneema, then you usually can't brummel an eye splice in it--it has to be straight bury or have some serious acrobatics done with disconnected pieces of cover. Bleh.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Umm - next dumass question: we are talking double-braid here for drogues, aren't we? Not that flimsy, loose, single-braid type 'Dyneema' with no core at all???

Yes, it is single braid that is being discussed here.
Single braid dyneema has no cover, not no core .

The cover generally provides little additional strength. Its main purpose is for better grip. It provides additional chafe protection, but surprisingly negligible extra UV protection.

[thinwater]

I've done a bunch of line washing for articles. Yes, I have seen commercial non-lock stitched double braid splices come apart. In fact, without some lock, nearly 1/3 are at least damaged.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I've done a bunch of line washing for articles. Yes, I have seen commercial non-lock stitched double braid splices come apart. In fact, without some lock, nearly 1/3 are at least damaged.

If these results were for Class I rope, this doesn't surprise me one bit.

I started splicing double braid only late last year (I had avoided it like the plague previously ), so I checked out about a dozen the methods currently shown online, most from rope manufacturers or riggers. The techniques varied tremendously. Almost half are advocating only burying a tiny amount of core (as little as one rope diameter) past the base of the loop. This is often coupled by initially pulling the core out, milking poorly and then cutting off a large amount of core sticking out, completely unbalancing the manufacturer's relationship between core and cover .

I think two factors would make the core prone to shifting past the base of the loop into the loop itself, weakening it tremendously.

SWL

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Lantau

Just to be clear, what I mean is a splice that is both locked, by weaving the rope in and out of itself two or more times (the standard lock, but I've seen it overlooked completely), AND stitched, quite literally the old-fashioned way with twine (marine-grade stuff). I think the latter is needed for when the splice is not under load, to keep it all together. And of course if you can keep any of it from creeping, when it does get under load it locks itself all together. If there's any doubt, try undoing a Dyneema splice that's not stitched. It's really easy, sometimes scarily easy, when you remove the load, at least before the stuff has a chance to settle in under load over time (and actually roughing it up a bit through use, which happens anyway, seems to make the splice stronger, weirdly). Again, this is for a drogue, which may go years without any use at all, probably will be tossed in and out of lockers, maybe even to different boats. The whole point is to have a super-strong system that is totally reliable.

But that's just my opinion.

To clarify, what I was referring to is the practice of sewing a line of stitching through a good portion of the length of the splice. Including once you've stitched far enough, then you reverse the direction of your sewing, to lock the sewn "seam" in place.

In an ideal world you'd do this with a sewing machine with a special curved presser foot which better accomodates line than does a flat one. And they're what most mid-sized & large rigging shops use.

Barring that, you can try a regular machine, but getting the machine's tension settings correct may be more hassle than it's worth.

Which leaves hand sewing. And it's completely satisfactory. Though as with regular sewing (clothes or canvas work), you lock (stitch) the end of your hand work with the needle & thread so that it doesn't unravel.

The preference would be to use a UV resistant thread. But most any heavy gauge thread will work in a pinch, even including some of the tow/yarns which comprises line covers (jackets).

I'm pretty anal when it comes to regularly inspecting one's running rigging. The above being part of the reason. Meaning due to the possibility that stitching, & even splices can begin to loosen, or fail due to UV or chafe. As can the stitching securing them in place.

Also, to facilitate said inspections, it's good to put a reeving splice into the tail of all of your halyards & reefing lines. As it allows you to fully pull them out of the spar literally in under 2min., & to put them back in just as easily, after inspecting them. By use of a leader line.
Which, reeving splices take about 5min. per line to do, so they're more than worth it.

Plus, if you like, you can paint splices, & their lock stitching with RP25 or Maxi Jacket in order to improve their UV & chafe resistance. As well as mechanically "gluing" the splices, & also the lock stitching, together.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Yes, it is single braid that is being discussed here.
Single braid dyneema has no cover, not no core .

The cover generally provides little additional strength. Its main purpose is for better grip. It provides additional chafe protection, but surprisingly negligible extra UV protection.

I'd love to see data on UV protection for covered VS uncovered, since I rely heavily on cover to protect my Vectran from UV. In my personal obsevations, Vectran discolors quickly in direct sunlight, but 7-year old covered Vectran looked like new when I pulled it out of the cover, though it had been in the sun the whole time.
Do you have access to tests regarding UV protection? Thanks.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Benz

I'd love to see data on UV protection for covered VS uncovered, since I rely heavily on cover to protect my Vectran from UV. In my personal obsevations, Vectran discolors quickly in direct sunlight, but 7-year old covered Vectran looked like new when I pulled it out of the cover, though it had been in the sun the whole time.
Do you have access to tests regarding UV protection? Thanks.

Thinwater may have this info at his fingertips, otherwise I will hunt up the source.

[Lantau]

Originally Posted by Benz

I'd love to see data on UV protection for covered VS uncovered, since I rely heavily on cover to protect my Vectran from UV. In my personal obsevations, Vectran discolors quickly in direct sunlight, but 7-year old covered Vectran looked like new when I pulled it out of the cover, though it had been in the sun the whole time.
Do you have access to tests regarding UV protection? Thanks.

This is probably getting to be too detailed, but I think it would also depend on the color of the cover. Darker covers will, I think, cut out more UV (at least it works that way with sail covers!).

But I doubt UV matters at all for a drogue. It'll be in a locker most of its life, and out for only a day or two at a time, very rarely.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Benz

I'd love to see data on UV protection for covered VS uncovered, since I rely heavily on cover to protect my Vectran from UV. In my personal obsevations, Vectran discolors quickly in direct sunlight, but 7-year old covered Vectran looked like new when I pulled it out of the cover, though it had been in the sun the whole time.
Do you have access to tests regarding UV protection? Thanks.

I have hunted with no success. Sorry. Maybe someone else can provide the reference.

The study specifically looked long term at dyneema with a polyester cover. Vectran is particularly susceptible to UV damage and I think it is likely its covers are chosen to specifically deal with this, so results of the study I am thinking of probably won't be relevant.

SWL

[UNCIVILIZED]

There are other factors in addition to the cover's thickness & color. As some brands, & even specific rope types withing a brand, have covers which are woven much tighter than others. And one also has to factor in what the cordage manufacturer uses in terms of coatings, both on the cover, & the core. In terms of; what, how much, it's lifespan, UV resistance, abrasion resistance, etc. Since like sunscreen, no 2 are created equal, nor wear the same, resist water the same, etc.


And with running rigging it pays off BIG to put reeving splices into all of your halyards & reefing lines. So that if the boat won't see any use for much more of a week, you swap out the halyards with cheap leader lines until it's time to go out sailing again. It takes but 2min. per halyard, & adds years to their lifespan, literally. And doing this is the norm on many racing & professiional boats for this exact reason.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

...And with running rigging it pays off BIG to put reeving splices into all of your halyards & reefing lines. ...

Way off topic but very useful info nonetheless. I'm guessing this is some type of clever whipping of the rope end - do you have a quick reference so we can all check it out (I could do a search but this may be helpful to a few others too).

[NevisDog]

Those reeving splices are neat, strong enough, and simple. Great - thanks for mentioning them.