Manual Bilge Pump Location?

[xslim]

I'm planning to also add a second manual diaphragm pump.

Can I re-use the same hose?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by HopCar

. . . I'm not a big believer in manual pumps. If you are pushing the handle on the pump, you're not stopping the leak.

Indeed. I don't think even a scared sailor can shift all that much water by main force, and operating a manual pump removes a crewman from more important things.

In my opinion, manual bilge pumps are ONLY useful if the boat has lost all power, and even then, they are only useful for fairly unchallenging dewatering jobs, not involving an ongoing leak. I don't really see the need for more than one, and that one, in my opinion, should be operated from the cockpit.

For real emergency dewatering, I chose a heavy duty AC powered trash pump, with 3" fire hose discharge. Besides that, I have:

1. 2x Whale Super Subs, as maintenance pumps for engine and main bilges.

2. 2x Rule 4000 pumps, as bilge pumps. Operated by Ultra float switches.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by xslim

I'm planning to also add a second manual diaphragm pump.

Can I re-use the same hose?

It's bad practice, for different reasons, to use the same hose and discharge for multiple pumps. Give each pump its own hose and discharge, and be very careful to prevent siphoning.

And rather than a second manual pump, I would really recommend a jumbo electric one which will actually shift a decent amount of water. Or an engine-driven one if you are concerned about losing power.

[xslim]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It's bad practice, for different reasons, to use the same hose and discharge for multiple pumps. Give each pump its own hose and discharge, and be very careful to prevent siphoning.

And rather than a second manual pump, I would really recommend a jumbo electric one which will actually shift a decent amount of water. Or an engine-driven one if you are concerned about losing power.

I already have engine driven and 2 electric ones.
Was planning to comply with ISAF Cat 1 rules that states that you need 2 manual pumps - one inside and one outside.

[TrentePieds]

I am not "in the know" about CAT 1, since I like sticking close to shore, the prospect there, in every sense, being so much more attractive, but I should have thought that an organization so focused on safety would have specified that each pump must have a separate through-hull?

The consensus on this thread in regard to bilge pumping seems to be that you "live better electrically", as General Electric used to put it. If one subscribes to that, and is satisfied that one's safety provisions, including bilge pumping, are as good as they can possibly be from an engineering point of view to meet any foreseeable contingency, any manual pump installed to meet ISAF's rules can obviously be of minimal functionality. It's only purpose would be that of ensuring eligibility for participating in an ISAF event.

It would be interesting to know if the bilge pumps even came into play in any significant way in any of the five yachts that the RCN had to go and help in mid Atlantic a day or two ago.

TP

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by xslim

I already have engine driven and 2 electric ones.
Was planning to comply with ISAF Cat 1 rules that states that you need 2 manual pumps - one inside and one outside.

OK, got you!

In that case, I withdraw my comments, other than to say -- give each pump its own hose and discharge point.

One pump in the cockpit and the other in any convenient place below. I've seen them mounted on bulkheads, and I think that's probably less in the way than other variants.

You might be able to reduce the installation headache and expense, by using a folding discharge hose which you throw out the companionway -- if that rules allow that.

If you are allowed to use a non-permanently installed discharge hose, then you might also try to make the second manual pump semi-useful at least by acquiring one of those extra-jumbo ones which need a big discharge hose, one of these: Edson Emergency Pump Kit with TruPlug. In fact, if the rules allow it, you might not even need to permanently install the pump.

[Steadman Uhlich]

For fun, watch this video.

Now imagine you are in a storm.
Who will do the pumping?
Where?

FYI: This model pumped 30 gallons in 30 strokes in less than one minute.
Since others have mentioned weight, that is moving 255 pounds of seawater (8.5 pounds x 30 = 255) out of the boat in less than a minute, powered by human.

FYI: This pump costs $1,200

NOTICE the age of the man pumping. Lifting heavy buckets is a young man's job. Old Salts know a pump is preferred.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvDmkFW5_v0&t=10s

[Boston Blackie]

Steady, we put a Don Street Edson pump aboard that you show a couple years ago for offshore sailing to back up the 4000 gph electric crash pump and regular electric bilge pump. The big problem is the large storage space for the pump and its hose.

Then this spring we found the perfect spot. I notched the board to fit under the binnacle of the Whitlock pedestal, added some lashing holes, and gave it a couple more coats of varnish. I replaced the cotter key clevises for the handle socket with quick pins to eliminate ankle bashing and mainsheet jibe fouling. Best of all the 3" hose coils and pump handle fit neatly on top of the liferaft in the afterdeck locker for same.

Sorry the photo is rotated. Saving the .jpg counterrotated does not seem to affect how it displays here.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Boston Blackie

Steady, we put a Don Street Edson pump aboard that you show a couple years ago for offshore sailing to back up the 4000 gph electric crash pump and regular electric bilge pump. The big problem is the large storage space for the pump and its hose.

Then this spring we found the perfect spot. I notched the board to fit under the binnacle of the Whitlock pedestal, added some lashing holes, and gave it a couple more coats of varnish. I replaced the cotter key clevises for the handle socket with quick pins to eliminate ankle bashing and mainsheet jibe fouling. Best of all the 3" hose coils and pump handle fit neatly on top of the liferaft in the afterdeck locker for same.

Sorry the photo is rotated. Saving the .jpg counterrotated does not seem to affect how it displays here.

Thanks for adding that photo.

Good to see the size of the pump on a boat for scale.

I like that you have it in an easily accessible place for offshore use. Everyone on the boat will know where it is, hard to miss.

One suggestion: How about some Sunbrella type cover to go around it, to protect the rubber diaphragm from UV damage, and to cover up the other parts too?

That is really an impressive pump.

With a healthy crew aboard, taking shifts, you could pump about 1,800 gallons per hour ( 30 gallons/minute x 60 minutes = 1,800 gallons per hour) if the pump crew took shifts of 30 strokes (one minute pumping, one minute rest) and alternated with two crew assigned to the task.

One hour of pumping ("Man the Pumps!") would dewater about 1,800 gallons or about 15,300 pounds of water. And that is a lot of weight and thus could save a boat from foundering.

That is obviously not as much as an electric 4,000 gph pump, but I think it is an impressive amount of water using muscle in an efficient way, and something I think an average crew member (i.e. not requiring a young athlete) could do. Of course it would be tiring but if there were more crew the task could be split in shifts again.
________________

I rotated your photo. I did that to make it easier on folks with stiff necks. Hope you don't mind. Let's see if it stays that way.

[bensolomon]

I have the same Edson pump on my boat as the emergency manual bilge pump. I love it! Works great to get water out of the dinghy, too.

Boston, love what you did with the board.

[Pelagic]

To the OP, if you wanted an extra emergency manual pump like the above Edison or similar Whale....keep it portable with cam lock hose connections

This versatility allows you to pump out all kinds of slow draining areas if a hatch was left open, transfer fresh water, help rescue a sinking neighbour, create a weighted list if keel was grounded at high tide....etc...etc..

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

To the OP, if you wanted an extra emergency manual pump like the above Edison or similar Whale....keep it portable with cam lock hose connections

This versatility allows you to pump out all kinds of slow draining areas if a hatch was left open, transfer fresh water, help rescue a sinking neighbour, create a weighted list if keel was grounded at high tide....etc...etc..

Good ideas!

[bensolomon]

Pelagic,

How would you create listing if grounded? What would you use to hold the water? It's a great idea. I never thought of that. I am just trying to imagine how to implement the strategy.

[Pelagic]

I would probably first swing the tender out on the boom and if not enough start adding water with the pump

[Boston Blackie]

Thanks for the great inputs on the Edson pump, Steady. I will definitely pull out the Sailrite and make up a Subnbrella bag to protect the bellowa. Hopefully before July 1 when we leave Marion for our Newfoundland cruise.