Locking the Head Overboard Valve

[Astrid]

All pleasure craft fitted with a toilet will be required to have a holding tank or a marine sanitation device.

In the case of holding tank only, discharge into inland waters is forbidden. It is permissable I believe if a marine sanitation device is installed to treat sewage.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by TrevC

Sounds like some crazy regulations just for a bit of poo. The dye thing is interesting. What colour does it make the output?

The dye is orange, I think another poster said blue. I think blue might be hard to see in the water.

[Weyalan]

We replaced all the through hulls and ball valves on Insatiable. The new ball valves all had a neat fiiting that allowed a padlock to be fitted to lock off the ball valves, if required.

[Watercolor]

Astrid,

It seems the thread was broken. I just have the last two comments, including yours.

IN Vermont and the Great lakes, Canada in particular, no overboard waste discharge is allowed. In the Great Lakes (Canadian law and in some states) and on Lake Champlain (NY and VT law) only gray water discharge is allowed (and that may change). The rule is that the waste hose must be totally disconnected from the discharge valve.

I believe this applies to several saltwater bays in Canada. I don't know how seriously the rules are enforced. However, I believe the fines can be severe.

I know that there has been ongoing revision of the rules for overboard discharge in Naragansett and Chesapeake Bays. You might want to check regarding the use of MSD's in those bays.

Again, I don't know how seriously the rules are enforced, but it only takes one regulation happy marine officer to ruin a boating holiday.

[sailorboy1]

Instead of starting a new thread I'm going revisit this one.

I have 2 holding tanks on the new boat. The aft head only discharges to a holding tank. The forward has a Y valve and can direct discharge overboard via a 1.5" hull valve or to the holding tank. Both tanks have pumps that can pump the tanks overboard via a 3/4" hull valve.

1 - It is clear from the requirements that the forward Y valve is required to be locked in the holding tank position.
2 - Does the forward 1-1/2" overboard valve also be locked in the closed position? (closed normally anywy and not a big deal and will do it either way)
3 - Does the 3/4" pumps hull valves be locked? (this is the real question as to get to the aft one you have to lift up the mattress and prop it up, remove the cover for the access to the valve header and then operate the valve).

And since I'm just south of Maine and they have a requirement that says that a holding can not even be connected to a hull valve; if I cross into Maine water would I have to disconnect the lines competely?

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

And since I'm just south of Maine and they have a requirement that says that a holding can not even be connected to a hull valve; if I cross into Maine water would I have to disconnect the lines competely?

Don, can you provide a citation for this rule? I've just visited a bunch of Maine web sites and cannot find any such rule, just the standard requirement for locking overboard discharge valves when within 3 miles of the coast.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

Don, can you provide a citation for this rule? I've just visited a bunch of Maine web sites and cannot find any such rule, just the standard requirement for locking overboard discharge valves when within 3 miles of the coast.

Attched is a link to USCG Aux
USCGAUX: Boating Law Guide

But that's only a small part of the question.

[Watercolor]

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Just to let you know up front, I posted a “For sale” notice for some TURNCOUPLEs that I had left over. They’re designed to facilitate the connection/disconnection of major marine hoses. They’re ideal for applications like yours. I just want you to factor that in when you read my response. I hope my response doesn't sound like a sales pitch. I will say that I’ve been dealing with head issues like yours for about 10 years.

First, I didn’t know that Maine had a no-discharge similar to Lake Champlain and the Great Lakes and I've tried to follow the issue closely. I couldn't find anything online. Do you have a reference for this new regulation? Could you let me know what it is?

Second, regarding your head system, if I understand you correctly, you have two heads with corresponding holding tanks. Each tank has an output line to a y-valve, one hose line to the deck and a second to a macerator and a thru-hull. The forward tank has a y-valve before the tank with one hose to the tank the other is a direct shot to the thru-hull. In effect, three lines and thru-hulls for the waste to be overboard discharged.

On Lake Champlain and the Great Lakes you’d need to disconnect and cap all three. Each hose needs to be more than simply pried off the thru-hull in a few seconds.

Third, my suggestion is to check with the State of Maine regarding the regulation. I’m not sure it’s as stringent as the Lake Champlain/Great Lakes regulations.

Fourth, having said that, you might think about how you currently use your head system and act accordingly. For example, do you ever use the head direct discharge thru-hull? If you don’t, just disconnect and cap it. We had that setup on our Shannon, and when I rebuild the head system I eliminated the direct discharge and I’ve never regretted it. I have several friends who have boats with two head systems. One services about 90% of their needs, the other gets marginal use. Disconnect and cap the one seldom used and pumpout when needed. Lastly, your main system, How often do you overboard discharge? How often do you go to the pumpout? Most of the NE coast has excellent pumpout services.

Bottom line.

Check the Maine regs. You may not have to do anything. While your thinking about it, depending on your usage, you might be able to eliminate one if not two thru-hull connections.

Fair winds,

Jed

[gettinthere]

Originally Posted by Watercolor

Unless Transport Canada, the agency that sets the overboard discharge rules, has reversed their regulations, the requirement in the Great lakes and many designated bays is that the overboard line be completely disconnected from the through-hull.

This is also the case on Lake Champlain.

From my 20 years of boating on the Great Lakes, both US & Canada, I find this to be false. All that is required in any fresh water is locking the Y valve to prevent overboard discharge.

The only place where removal of the hose is required is on Lake Champlain.

[sabray]

The link to Maines law says "Holding tank may not be connected to hull-fitting". I could see maybe not allowing a direct y valve. That is crazy

[gettinthere]

watercolor

I see you've posted 3 times that the hose needs to be removed anywhere in the Great Lakes. Please provide documentation for this. I believe you are totally wrong.

[gettinthere]

As for locking the Y-valve vs. locking the seacock, I did some digging just last week and found this:

TITLE 33 - NAVIGATION AND NAVIGABLE WATERS

CHAPTER I - COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

SUBCHAPTER O - POLLUTION

PART 159 - MARINE SANITATION DEVICES

subpart a - GENERAL

159.7 - Requirements for vessel operators.

(a) No person may operate any vessel equipped with installed toilet facilities unless it is equipped with: (1) An operable Type II or III device that has a label on it under 159.16 or that is certified under 159.12 or 159.12a; or (2) An operable Type I device that has a label on it under 159.16 or that is certified under 159.12, if the vessel is 19.7 meters (65 feet) or less in length.

(b) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of treated or untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3 or 140.4, the operator must secure each Type I or Type II device in a manner which prevents discharge of treated or untreated sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include (1) Closing the seacock and removing the handle; (2) Padlocking the seacock in the closed position; (3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold the seacock in the closed position; or (4) Locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets with a padlock or door handle key lock.

(c) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3, the operator must secure each Type III device in a manner which prevents discharge of sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include (1) Closing each valve leading to an overboard discharge and removing the handle; (2) Padlocking each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position; or (3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position.




And this from Florida:


FL Statutes - Title XXIV Vessels Section 327.01 Short title.

327.53 Marine sanitation.

(1) Every vessel 26 feet or more in length which has an enclosed cabin with berthing facilities shall, while on the waters of the state, be equipped with a toilet. On a vessel other than a houseboat, the toilet may be portable or permanently installed. Every permanently installed toilet shall be properly attached to the appropriate United States Coast Guard certified or labeled marine sanitation device.
(2) Every houseboat shall be equipped with at least one permanently installed toilet which shall be properly connected to a United States Coast Guard certified or labeled Type III marine sanitation device. If the toilet is simultaneously connected to both a Type III marine sanitation device and to another approved marine sanitation device, the valve or other mechanism selecting between the two marine sanitation devices shall be set to direct all sewage to the Type III marine sanitation device and, while the vessel is on the waters of the state, shall be locked or otherwise secured by the boat operator, so as to prevent resetting.
(3) Every floating structure that has an enclosed living space with berthing facilities, or working space with public access, must be equipped with a permanently installed toilet properly connected to a Type III marine sanitation device or permanently attached via plumbing to shoreside sewage disposal. No structure shall be plumbed so as to permit the discharge of sewage into the waters of the state.
(4)(a) Raw sewage shall not be discharged from any vessel, including houseboats, or any floating structure in Florida waters. The operator of any vessel which is plumbed so that a toilet may be flushed directly into the water or so that a holding tank may be emptied into the water shall, while the vessel is on the waters of the state, set the valve or other mechanism directing the sewage so as to prevent direct discharge and lock or otherwise secure the valve so as to prevent resetting.
(b) All waste from Type III marine sanitation devices shall be disposed in an approved sewage pumpout facility.
(c) All waste from portable toilets shall be disposed in an approved waste reception facility.
(5) Every vessel owner, operator, and occupant shall comply with United States Coast Guard regulations pertaining to marine sanitation devices and with United States Environmental Protection Agency regulations pertaining to areas in which the discharge of sewage, treated or untreated, is prohibited.


Notice that for type 1 & type 2 there is a need to lock the SEACOCK vs the requirement with type 3 to lock the VALVE.

I wish they had used the term Y-Valve to be clearer. But it is pretty obvious they mean the Y-valve vs the seacock when talking about the type 3 system.
As I understand this, a type 1 or 2 is a Lectrasan type system and a type 3 is a holding tank system.
So Lectrasan systems need to be locked at the seacock but holding tank systems need only be locked at the Y-valve.

[sailorboy1]

The question of whether the macerator discharge valves require to be locked is the main question.

[teneicm]

The rule for disconnection seems to be only for Maine's INLAND waters(Lakes, rivers):

Maine - MSDs
Discharge of Waste from Watercraft
No person, firm, corporation or other legal entity shall discharge, spill or permit to be discharged sewage, garbage, or other waste material from a watercraft or houseboat, into inland waters of this State, or on the ice thereof, or on the banks thereof in such a manner that the same may fall or be washed into such waters, or in such manner that the drainage therefrom may flow into such waters.
Any watercraft or houseboat, operated upon the inland waters of this State and having a permanently installed sanitary waste disposal system shall have securely affixed to the interior discharge opening of said sanitary waste disposal system a holding tank or suitable container for holding sanitary waste material so as to prevent its discharge or drainage into the inland waters of the State. The holding tank for sanitary water waste must not in any way be connected to any through-hull fitting.
Whoever violates any provision of this section or any regulation adopted under authority of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine or not more than $500.

[Captain Bill]

Here is the actual text of the Maine law:

"No person, firm, corporation or other legal entity shall discharge, spill or permit to be discharged sewage, garbage, or other waste material from a watercraft or houseboat, into inland waters of this State, or on the ice thereof, or on the banks thereof in such a manner that the same may fall or be washed into such waters, or in such manner that the drainage therefrom may flow into such waters.
Any watercraft or houseboat, operated upon the inland waters of this State and having a permanently installed sanitary waste disposal system shall have securely affixed to the interior discharge opening of said sanitary waste disposal system a holding tank or suitable container for holding sanitary waste material so as to prevent its discharge or drainage into the inland waters of the State. The holding tank for sanitary water waste must not in any way be connected to any through-hull fitting.
Whoever violates any provision of this section or any regulation adopted under authority of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500."


The key here seems to be the definition of "Inland Waters". In reading several of the other rules pertaining to fishing and other activities it seems that Maine defines "Inland Waters" as all lakes and streams above the influence of the tides. This definition is used to distiguish between fresh and saltwater fishing regulations. It would seem to me that the requirement for not having any connection to a thru-hull is limited to these waters. The USCG uses a different definition which is essentially the territorial sea of the state. Numerous web sites giving guidance on no discharge zone regulations in Maine state that only that overboard discharge valves must be secured in the closed position for type III MSDs, which is pretty much standard. This would seem to be consistant with the Maine definition of inland waters. Perhaps someone can get clarification from the state of Maine on their definitions, but I'm not going to worry about it when I go to Maine this summer, I'll just secure my overboard valve. I'm not planning on going up into any fresh water areas anyway.