Keel Bolts: OCD or OMG?

[plittle2005]

Was my boat, I would:
-Short haul
-Pressure wash
-Sand crack area down to gelcoat
-Inspect keel front edge for impact evidence
-if no visible crack (use machinist's dye-check)
-Back in water, use NDT to inspect bolts: Ultra-sonic or eddy current
-Will bolts hold torque?

If no rust stains, and no outside crack or impact indications, I'd keep sailing.
My $.02 worth

[K1MGY]

Originally Posted by sv_isara

Also is your keel also EPOXIED to your stub like mine? If so, OMGOMGOMG because you're going to DESTROY your keel stub in the process of removing your keel.

I found some commentary stating Hunter epoxied the keel to the stub, and others saying they used 3M5200 or an equivalent.

Guess we will find out should we have to drop her.

[K1MGY]

Originally Posted by sv_isara

Also, did you verify that the water is salt water (also after rinsing the area with fresh water and drying it?)

Yes, a friend tested the water with a salinity test kit and it's definitely salt. Yes, I dried and cleaned before sampling. I can clearly see the water seep up through the cracks.

[JPA Cate]

Hi, K1MGY,

What can you tell us about the boat's injury? The more specific you are, the better the guys will be able to help you work out approaches to repairs.

I though Don CL's response relative to the bilge pumps was particularly a propos. If you decide to fix up this boat, the more mentoring you get, the easier it will be.

Ann

[K1MGY]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hi, K1MGY, What can you tell us about the boat's injury?

Yes on the bilge pump. I've added a second one and installed a new alarm. Plus a ring alarm water sensor if something bad happens and I'm away. So very good idea on that front!

From what I was told before purchase, the prior owner backed into something and destroyed the rudder. It was completely rebuilt, including the rudder post and stock. I can only assume that the keel and hull were inspected and found to be undamaged. No damage was found at the survey, although my confidence in the surveyor has dwindled as I discover stuff that was missed.


Since then she has had two run-ins with some sand. Both at low speed (a few knots) under aux. power only. I'm informed that this is very common here in Florida, and apparently its an act of baptism in these parts.

There's no solid evidence of stress at any of the keel bolts. Several, however, have a hard rubber gland or washer between the bolt and the fiberglass (only 3 of the bolts have any sort of backer plate). There's speculation that these glands were added to stop leaks. I wouldn't be surprised. Another glaring piece of evidence that the surveyor missed.

[JPA Cate]

I feel your frustration across the miles, mate. But surveyors are only human and some are more knowledgeable and experienced and of greater good will than others. They make mistakes and miss things. They usually have time limits on how much time they can spend on any one boat.

The suggestion you had earlier to drill out the crack in the picture that shows all the way around the bolt....I'd rather already be hauled out when I went to address that, AND all the repair work should be done in the slings, because with the boat sitting on it's keel, the hull deforms, and when launched, wants to return to its previous in-the-water form, tearing apart your fixes. This happened to us. (Hard grounding on unmarked reef in Fiji.) In the water, the water supports the boat and the keel just hangs on via the keel bolts. On the land, the keel supports the boat. So, wherever you are, make sure some kind of emergency haul is available, if you open a hole that gets bigger fast, you can sink before a crane can get there to haul you out. Here's a link about depth, size of hole, and rate of flooding: https://www.whsyc.org/Flooding/Flooding.html

The next question to answer is can both your pumps together cope with ~ 40 gals/min, assuming the leak is 4 ft. deep, and it is a 1" hole?

Good luck with it, I'm afraid you've a tiger by the tail, not a pussy cat. (Background for you, Jim and I have spent 35 yrs. as full time cruisers, hence I've been around a lot of repairs.) Someone commented about negativity, and I don't mean to be negative at all, but holes in fiberglass boats don't usually fix themselves, usually they get worse over time, and create more damages. Also, I think you've a right to honest opinions, even when they're hard to hear.

Ann

[K1MGY]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

..Here's a link about depth, size of hole, and rate of flooding: https://www.whsyc.org/Flooding/Flooding.html

The next question to answer is can both your pumps together cope with ~ 40 gals/min, assuming the leak is 4 ft. deep, and it is a 1" hole?

Ann

Sobering information. Cope? Answer is NO WAY.

Fortunately, the leak rate presently is only sufficient to fill a shot glass in an hour.

She'll be in the straps soon.

/m

[Don C L]

A shot glass an hour? Sounds like a syringe needle size hole... or a leaky stuffing box...

[JPA Cate]

Don, increase the size of the photo in post #1. I see 3 cracks there, one about 50% the circumference of the bolt (there is no backing plate, just a fender washer), and of course, it's just gelcoat there. Boat is not known to be sturdily built, and that looks to me like it bounced off a rock or something hard, and K1MGY was not informed ever, and the prior owner may not have known, if he/she wasn't aboard on every sail.

It would be super if he only has a stuffing box or flexible shaft seal to deal with, but till those cracks are investigated, if it were me, I'd want the boat on the hard, then in the slings. Meanwhile K1 can certainly check the stuffing box for an in-the-water approach, but I won't be surprised if he does have a serious problem.

Ann

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Don, increase the size of the photo in post #1. I see 3 cracks there, one about 50% the circumference of the bolt (there is no backing plate, just a fender washer), and of course, it's just gelcoat there. Boat is not known to be sturdily built, and that looks to me like it bounced off a rock or something hard, and K1MGY was not informed ever, and the prior owner may not have known, if he/she wasn't aboard on every sail.

It would be super if he only has a stuffing box or flexible shaft seal to deal with, but till those cracks are investigated, if it were me, I'd want the boat on the hard, then in the slings. Meanwhile K1 can certainly check the stuffing box for an in-the-water approach, but I won't be surprised if he does have a serious problem.

Ann

Oh, I totally agree, especially if it is known someone backed the keel over something hard. The stuffing box comment was a bit of wishful thinking for him... sure would be nice if it turned out to be the answer.

[K1MGY]

The adventure continues, but with much better news.

1. The leaking was absolutely NOT coming through the keel to hull joint. In fact, this was examined while still on the travel lift and with the full force of the keel pulling against the joint, and there is absolutely NO compromise whatsoever in the hull to keel joint. According to the experts here, this keel looks as if it was just installed. So THIS is a huge reveal.

So we searched for the source of water rising around the outer perimeter of the bolts...

2. There is a leaky gland for cabling which enters into the ceiling just below the mast. These cables are routed down the compression post and into the area of the bilge, where they are routed as needed. Water had been traversing along the cables and brought into the bilge. So, source #1.

3. Source #2: prior to purchase and for alomst 9 months, the boat had been on the hard with every portlight and the front window leaking into the cabin.

4. Source #3: By happenstance, we noticed an injured portion of the gelcoat at the point where the upper and lower forms of the boat structure join. This was ground down for patching, and a hole was located.. large enough and close enough to the water line to allow water to leak in. The theory is that this water traveled to the lowest point of the hull and therefore into the bilge.

Now we get to the bolts. This is the fun part.

As an Engineer, I wanted everything measured and documented, including the existing torque tension on each bolt. Well, it couldn't be measured. All of the bolts were easy to remove. One of them was taken off BY HAND. (I was naturally appalled).

Earlier examination suggested that some of the bolts had hard rubber "donut" washers, which were squeezed beneath each nut, in order to stop the ingress. Actually, these turned out to be brass sleeves, used to keep the nuts on good threads, as the threads deeper down the bolt were damaged on several of them.

So, water IN the bilge traversed down past the loose bolts into the space between the fiberglass and keel and pooled there. Temperature and pressure are theorized to be the reason why, after emptying and drying the bilge, water was seen coming up through the cracks.

There's a bunch of good photos that illustrate and I would welcome y'all to have a look. Please critique my deductions, which are based upon the evidence we've gathered so far.

THANK YOU all.

Mark
S/V BABU

[GreenWave]

What a great summary and investigation. Looks like multiple sources of water ingress. IMO your bolts look very good.

[K1MGY]

I should make some bolt close-ups. On three of the eight bolts, the threads along 75% of the bolt are destroyed, and one of them is bent slightly. There is sufficient thread at the base to put a nut.

Guess the story of how they got into this condition might be worthy of telling.. but I have no clue.

[JPA Cate]

Thanks for getting back to us, though. Finding it interesting.

Ann

[GreenWave]

Originally Posted by K1MGY

I should make some bolt close-ups. On three of the eight bolts, the threads along 75% of the bolt are destroyed, and one of them is bent slightly. There is sufficient thread at the base to put a nut.

Guess the story of how they got into this condition might be worthy of telling.. but I have no clue.

Interesting. Is it possible the keel has been dropped in the past?