How many HEADS does a boat really need?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by StuM

I think it has a lot to do with more boats being built for the charter trade. If two or more couples get together to share a charter, frequently they will each want their own facilities.

Makes sense. Especially for the larger boats, and the big cats that now seem to dominate the Carib charter trade.

I’m sure it’s a combination of factors, but I still say the foundational change is affluence and the creeping demand for more “comforts.” I’m sure anyone over 50 will recall the days when one bathroom in the family home was the norm, and perfectly fine. So too with number of cars, TVs, telephones… the list goes on and on. In those days few of us went on on charter vacations with friends; that was something only the rich did. Now a packaged vacation on some beach is the norm for the middle class.

Time moves on, and what was once extravagant and luxurious becomes the new normal. Interestingly, we’re into a great reversal of all this as the younger generations now become less affluent than the previous ones — something that hasn’t happened in modern western countries in hundreds of years.

This shift is what is driving the so-called “sharing economy” (which has little to do with “sharing”), and the drive for “tiny houses.” I bet the charter world will abandon these mega cats in another 10 years or so as all the Baby Boomers drift off to the Elysian Fields of their choice.

[Suijin]

I’ve done numerous multi-week offshore passages with mixed gender crews of four with one head and I don’t recall it ever being an issue at all. Never even thought about it until now honestly.

I think anything more than one for up to four people maybe even six is a luxury. Nothing wrong with luxury, but it’s all a matter of where you turn the corner from need to convenience.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Makes sense. Especially for the larger boats, and the big cats that now seem to dominate the Carib charter trade.

I’m sure it’s a combination of factors, but I still say the foundational change is affluence and the creeping demand for more “comforts.” I’m sure anyone over 50 will recall the days when one bathroom in the family home was the norm, and perfectly fine. So too with number of cars, TVs, telephones… the list goes on and on. In those days few of us went on on charter vacations with friends; that was something only the rich did. Now a packaged vacation on some beach is the norm for the middle class.

Time moves on, and what was once extravagant and luxurious becomes the new normal. Interestingly, we’re into a great reversal of all this as the younger generations now become less affluent than the previous ones — something that hasn’t happened in modern western countries in hundreds of years.

This shift is what is driving the so-called “sharing economy” (which has little to do with “sharing”), and the drive for “tiny houses.” I bet the charter world will abandon these mega cats in another 10 years or so as all the Baby Boomers drift off to the Elysian Fields of their choice.

Charter cats have a totally different usage pattern from the typical cruising boat, so it makes perfect sense that the design is different.
- Most cruising boats have 2 people on board with occasional guests (1-2 weeks per year?). The owners get to clean, maintain and pay for the systems. They are usually well versed in the trade offs that come with the cruising lifestyle.
- Most charter cats (mid 40' and up) typically carry 8-10 guests most weeks and possibly crew on top of that. Staff maintain the systems and to a final cleaning weekly. Guests are on vacation so compromises of waiting in line could push them to choose an alternative vacation.

Yes, time moves on and things change but really the grumpy old guy claiming the world is going downhill doesn't hold up when you stop comparing dollars earned and look at lifestyle and luxury earned.

When I was a kid, a 20" TV might cost the equivalent of a months salary for a middle class earner. Now someone earning minimum wage can buy a 40" TV for a weeks earnings.

When I was a kid, a car with a 100k miles on it was ready for the junkyard. I just bought a used truck with a 150k miles on it and expect to get around 100k miles more on it before I replace it. Not only that, it has twice the HP and can tow 50% more all while being quieter, more efficient and just overall more comfortable...and this is a 10yr old truck. The newer ones are even better.

When you look at purchasing power vs value, just about everyone is winning. It's when you compare apples to oranges and only consider the dollars that it looks like we are treading water.

Don't get caught up in some of the media hype...tiny houses and similar fads are not widespread. They are mostly media creations. Other things like airbnb are great. Hotels don't like them and I wouldn't put my place on there but its an easy way to start a business (in the old days, someone might run a boarding house but it's basically the same thing)

[thinwater]

• There is no "get ready for school and work" rush hour on a boat.
• Except on passage, people will use shore facilities part or even most of the time. It just works out that way in my experience.
• On passage shifts have the effect of spreading usage.
• Some people are more adaptable than others. Practically all of the friends and family I cruised with were backpackers at some point; having a single head with hot water and a shower is an agreeable luxury. A second wouldn't make sense to them.
• I can't imagine wanting to cruise with anyone where great privacy seemed like a vital need.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Charter cats have a totally different usage pattern from the typical cruising boat, so it makes perfect sense that the design is different.

Agreed. Serves the market. My prediction is this market will diminish over the coming decade or so as richer generations slide off into the sunset.
…

Originally Posted by valhalla360

When I was a kid, a 20" TV might cost the equivalent of a months salary for a middle class earner. Now someone earning minimum wage can buy a 40" TV for a weeks earnings.

Yes… and a whole lot of stuff now costs a lot more; education, housing, healthcare, pensions — arguably all the important stuff. There is no data I am aware of which shows the younger generations are richer than the Baby Boomers/Gen-Xers. There is tons of financial and sociological data that shows the opposite.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Don't get caught up in some of the media hype...tiny houses and similar fads are not widespread. They are mostly media creations. Other things like airbnb are great. Hotels don't like them and I wouldn't put my place on there but its an easy way to start a business (in the old days, someone might run a boarding house but it's basically the same thing)

I can’t easily find credible stats on the tiny house market (my net connection is sketchy). Might be hype, as you say, but I don’t think so. All the trends in the up and coming generations point to smaller house sizes. The tiny house trend is only the extreme end of this. Normal house sizes are shrinking (for the first time in generations), driven by the new buyers, but also by the shift to condo life.

AirBnB, Uber, and the like are great business models — for the companies, and for the customers. The benefits vary greatly for the actual owners. It’s great for the companies b/c no longer need to maintain any capital. They shift all the risk and the expenses on to the house or car owners, and they reap the profits. The benefits to the owners are varied — some do great, some not so much. Plenty of analysis of Uber showing few drivers make more than poverty wages when all the expenses are added in.

Back to heads… makes perfect sense for large boats with large crews; especially so for charter vacationers. Makes little biological or functional sense on smallish boats with smallish crews.

[a64pilot]

The tiny house movement and others are driven I believe by the ever widening spread of the wealthy and everybody else, in short the middle class is dyeing off.
If I’m right you will see more and more tiny houses and yet the McMansions will continue to get bigger and bigger.
You see the data that supports this all over the place, large Yacht deliveries are way up, smaller boat manufacturers are going under, Manufacturing of “Business” Jets is at an all time high, small planes almost don’t exist anymore.

Just this year I believe we hit the greatest disparity of wealth since 1929.

Now you can find all kinds of articles from obviously left wing organizations that is likely biased, but this is fortune magazine
http://fortune.com/2017/08/01/wealth-gap-america/

What has this got to do with big cats with four heads? Well I’m postulating that like the McMansions, they will continue to grow in size, just like the McMansions.

[telemac]

Originally Posted by cyan

A psuedo-scientific study...
How many heads do we really need to safely avoid a crew emergency?
Conversely, how many do you need for crew happiness?

This is a question that crossed my mind back in the days when my family all shared one bathroom in our little house.
I always suspected that having TWO bathrooms with a bunch of people was not TWICE as good, but EXPONENTIALLY better.
Three or more must just give diminishing returns.
("Better" in the sense of fewer emergencies where someone is pounding on the bathroom door in need.)

Now this question has come up regarding our cruising boat and estimated guest count.
I think the average cruising crew count is often close to 2, but we plan on 4+ for longer passages.
Peggy Hall probably already has the answers, but here is a bit of math to explore this question in depth.

The following analysis makes several assumptions and generalizations.
It does NOT consider male/female differences, and assumes nobody does their business top-side. (our boat doesn't perfectly comply here)
An "emergency" means someone has to go, but all heads are occupied.
Also, it assumes worst-case: everyone is awake during the same 16 hours. (must be anchored!)

Nmins_in_day = waking hours (16) * 60 min/hr = 960 minutes in a waking day
Ncrew = crew count
Nheads = head count
Ppee = probability of a person using head = (16 min per day / 960 waking minutes) = 0.017
Nemergency = minutes per day of emergency head-door-pounding
(note: 16 min per day in the head is taken from a British study of bathroom habits)

Nemergency = [(Ppee)(Ncrew)*(Ppee)(Ncrew-1)*(Ppee)(Ncrew-2)...(Ppee)(Ncrew-Nheads)]*Nmins_in_day

Here is a table of results for a crew count of 2-10 and a heads count of 1-4...

Nemergency (emergency minutes per day)
____________heads_________
______1_____2____3_____4__
crew
2____0.53__0.00__0.00__0.00
3____1.60__0.03__0.00__0.00
4____3.20__0.11__0.00__0.00
5____5.33__0.27__0.01__0.00
6____8.00__0.53__0.03__0.00
7___11.20__0.93__0.06__0.00
8___14.93__1.49__0.12__0.01
9___19.20__2.24__0.22__0.02
10__24.00__3.20__0.37__0.04

Conclusions...
Yes, having 2 heads IS better than twice as good as having 1 head. With 4 crew, 2 vs 1 head is 29 times better!!
TWENTY NINE times the peace.
TWENTY NINE times the happiness.
However adding a 3rd head looks irrelevant until 8 or more crew is on board.
Interestingly, 10 crew with 2 heads will involve 3.2 minutes of door-pounding per day.

A further happiness study could include the opposing forces such as cleaning,maintenance where FEWER heads would be better.
A fancy equation might not be needed to find the perfect number though.
2 heads looks like the ideal count for 3 to 7 crew according to the chart.
Thoughts?

-Cy

Great formula! Lol! My wife and I have a 43 foot ketch with 2 heads. The main head has a separate shower which we use daily. The second head has not been used since we moved aboard. It is ensuite to the forward cabin and my wife uses it as a hanging locker. The previous owners did the same. I have the sea cocks closed but have resisted the urge to remove it for peace of mind. The last time I rebuilt the head I had to tinker for a day or so. We were in a marina so no problem. If we were on the hook and somebody had a bad curry, things would have been a bit more urgent. [emoji33]

[dwedeking2]

Turned my aft head into a wet locker. The previous owner had removed everything to remidel/upgrade. I decided not to put everything back. Will rip out the sink and fit that space with a 6 tank scuba rack (weight low and centerline) and use the room for wet gear and dive equipment as has the old shower pan to collect drippong water.

[carstenb]

We've made it halfway around the wórld with only one head and with no emergencies - of course we take all our showers out in the bathing platform so the head is only used as a head.

The only reason for two heads is that you can have one on each side - meaning when you are on a long passage, say 20-30 days, you always have one working toilet no matter long you have heeled on that tack.

We solved that problem by going over to fresh water flushing when the salt water intake is over the waterline.

But then - we have a watermaker........................

Otherwise, having two means it is a good place to hang your dripping foulies.......................

[Cheechako]

The difference between a 35 ft boat and a 42 ft boat is.... wait for it... one more head!

[roland stockham]

A boat 'Needs' a bucket for safety in bad weather to stop crew going overboard or getting drenched. Anything more than that is a want not a need and is purely personal/cultural preference. Whether you change your culture or the boats facilities is going to have a significant impact on where you feel comfortable cruising. If you 'need' a high tech boat with air con, multiple bathrooms etc you are going to be limited to cruising in places that have the facilities to support and maintain that type of boat. If you want to see more of the world simplify you needs to match what is available in those places and you will have far less trauma. Even if you don't get rid of all the high tech stuff at least have the simple alternative available so you can substitute for breakdowns. That said it is more about physiological downsizing you expectations.

[Dave22q]

Men and women are NOT the same. Two heads are probably adequate for 8 or 10 men, especially if supplmented by a sealable urine container. For women it depends on the individuals and their relationships. Go to most any crowded facility and note the lines of women vs. the line free mend rooms and you can see what I mean.
My solution is to avoid guests who are too shy to knock and request a little speed.

[Tom and Maje]

Two. Yes, we have spare parts, but while iit’s being fixed i’m Not going in a bucket.

Maje

[Althebass]

Surely there are more important matters to discuss? Anyway, this topic was decided many years ago. Everyone must have heard the old saying, two heads are better than one

[Tayana42]

The number of heads isn’t so important. What matters is the captain must have one and in case of an emergency he/she must be able to keep it.