Fresh water makers best price and performance?

[SV THIRD DAY]

[QUOTE=Tellie;1867966]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

That Rich guy must be nuts...well my wife certainly says I am!


Hey man, it ain't just her!

PS, I was just in Annapolis this past week when I was reminded...You will buy me a Pain Killer this year buddy.

Agreed....since I'm doing both Sail and Power this year...I will buy us BOTH one...ha ha

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Spectra do charge a premium for their filters, but the major and expensive components are covered.

It was explained to me at Sail Expo a few years back by Spectra that they purchase (Dow I think) the top spec'd elements from all of Dow's lots. True you can purchase a standard 21 or 40 from a Dow distributor for a little cheaper. Not sure of the GPH difference between the 3. Perhaps Tellie knows a little more.

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Good luck in finding a used Spectra. I have a couple of friends that have the Ventura 150 and 200. Both love them. Our boats have twin 120 watt solar panels. The owner of the 200T runs his for a few hours in the middle of the day, and makes enough water for three days. This unit is spec'd at 8.3 gal/hr at 10 amp draw. He says it actually does a bit better than spec. Runs four hours, minus a couple of gals of fresh water flush at the end, and net 30 gal for the mid-day run. That lasts him about three days with liberal water use. Also provides enough to rinse his gear, fresh water rinse when wife gets out of the water, no hauling jugs of water from questionable sources. Yeah, it is not cheap vs $0.50 per gallon water in the Bahamas. But we want the freedom to not have to chase down water or come in from remote islands unless we want. Others have told me I am adding 60 lb unit to the boat, and that's more weight. Lets see - if I have a WM, I can probably just keep 50 gals of water in the tanks rather than 100 gals. Let's see, that's over 400 lbs of water not carried. I think net gain on the weight issue.

I lucked out and found a two year old unit that was never installed. For sale by owner. I haven't installed yet. The test sheet on the unit says 6.7 gal/hr at 8.4 amps or about 16.5 watts per gallon. Only near-term issue I have is that water here is not clean enough to use it in the bay, can try it out offshore on the way to Florida in October, but then the boat is going to be stored for four months so will have to pickle it. Then put back in service in the Bahamas. Would like to test connections and unit before absolutely needing it in the Bahamas, but don't want to pickle more times than I have to.

Difficult but not impossible. Thanx to Tellie, I found mine in Fl. and re-configured it and had the Clark pump rebuilt and updated. While in La Paz, Mx. heard of another Spectra on the net from someone who just bought someone else's sailboat and was only going to occasionally sail it in the Sea of Cortez and wanted the "damn thing removed". Probably to accommodate more booze (which is not a bad thing.)

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

It was explained to me at Sail Expo a few years back by Spectra that they purchase (Dow I think) the top spec'd elements from all of Dow's lots. True you can purchase a standard 21 or 40 from a Dow distributor for a little cheaper.

I call ******** on that one as a way to explain away why a dealer is selling a membrane for $399 or $499 that you can buy elsewhere for $197. What are they to say...because we have a bigger margin? Look everyone has their cost basis and needs to make a certain margin on products to keep the door open, but making up some BS "ours are special" story to scare people into a higher cost product is...well...unethical. I'm also sure that is not Spectra's official line either because they are better company than to lie to their customers. Sounds like a salesman needs to have his hand slapped for that whopper.

[dirkdig]

Just installed a system from Rich and its quality all round.
Easy to install and they are super fast with any help,you need.
Top manual and built to work with little to go wrong.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[laika]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

And another thing - that JT (Tellie) guy must not have a life because I have talked to him on the cell several times, always there, very knowledgable, and all at the same time that he knew he could not sell me a unit as I am not in his area. Wish I was.

I don't know how he does it, either. The guy will literally drop whatever he's doing or pull off the side of the highway to take your call.

Haven't yet used the gay porn thingy I bought from him, but liked the redundancy and versatility of the dual feed pumps and managed to fit it on a 27'.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

I call ******** on that one as a way to explain away why a dealer is selling a membrane for $399 or $499 that you can buy elsewhere for $197. What are they to say...because we have a bigger margin? Look everyone has their cost basis and needs to make a certain margin on products to keep the door open, but making up some BS "ours are special" story to scare people into a higher cost product is...well...unethical. I'm also sure that is not Spectra's official line either because they are better company than to lie to their customers. Sounds like a salesman needs to have his hand slapped for that whopper.

When I'm in their roving technician class this fall, I'll ask the question when opportunity permits.

[sy_gilana]

Originally Posted by monte

Tell us more about these please. Build quality, ease of installation, price?
Thanks
Monte

Hi Monte. I met these guys through a friend who bought a distributed system from them. ie. One that can have the components spread out around the boat as apposed to a self contained unit.

I noticed that the translation in the English manual was a bit confusing, so I offered to help with that. I also chatted at length with the owner and designer of the systems and we swapped some ideas regarding some new plastics that would eliminate some of the 'O' rings in the Clark/Schenker energy recovery pump.

I have since installed 3 more of them.

Observations:

Price wise competitive provided you have cheap delivery.
Accurate energy use as advertised provided decent wire section is used, salinity and temperature of feed water are not way out of normal.
I like the auto shut-down, that feeds product water from the boats pressurized fresh water system.
I like the variable speed motor with soft start.
The quality of everything is superb, but of course the filters and housings etc are all pretty standard as they are buy-ins.
The kit comes with clear instructions, ample tubing (there will be left overs) and nothing is missing.
Charcoal filter is provided standard for flush circuit.
The vane pump comes with a spare head included in the price.
Less 'O' rings than the competition in their patented pump that gets away with less moving parts
http://www.eco-sistems.com/wp-conten...-ETD-trans.png
Ceramic parts in high wear areas.
I also like the accumulator that smooths out the whole system so it makes less of a clunk sound as the pistons change direction.
"Standard" 80mm membranes (IE other mfgrs will fit)

Negatives:
The vane pump MUST be installed well beneath the waterline for priming. It WILL cavitate if installed at WL. It can be prevented by providing a feed-pump but that will defeat the energy savings somewhat.
Vane pump will fail terminally if run dry for any short period.
Single pre-filter is not enough for dirty waters, and if you add an extra one there is a production drop. I modified one of the systems to have an extra 30 mic prefilter after the pump with a bypass circuit, so you can use it in bad water, or bypass it for normal use.

Obviously installation has a lot to do with how well it works and how long it remains trouble free. I always put the electrical parts of the system in a dry area, even if it means drilling a bulkhead to lead the cables through.

The necessity of having the vane pump located as low as possible makes it vulnerable to flooding damage. It is a permanent magnet motor, and will affect a fluxgate compass etc. I mounted 2 of pumps on rubber mounts for less noise transmission but those boats had a cabin inches away from the engine compartment.

If I was to buy a watermaker it would be this one.

All of the installations I did were tank-full on solar panels only for 3 hours of mid-day sun almost daily.

The Euro: Dollar is favorable at the moment, so their smallest unit comes in at just over $3000.00 for 25 l an hour (about 7 gal/h)

Shoo, did not intend to type so much, hope it helped.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

When I'm in their roving technician class this fall, I'll ask the question when opportunity permits.

We have a standing purchase order for 7 cases of SW30-2540 membranes per month (8 membranes per case) to fill membrane sale orders and to install in our water makers. I'm sure that number is peanuts to the likes of Spectra. But that level of moving product does gets you invited to the Dow membrane production facility in Mendota, MN for show and tell.

When I asked the President of the membrane production unit about this rumor that I have heard myself for years he looked at me and the tour group and said something damn close to: "Every Dow membrane that has our name and serial number on it comes with the same +/- 15% guarantee on the production specs. A salesman somewhere seems to be taking some liberty with the truth".

[monte]

Thanks gilana, there not much info on these WMs so your details are helpful. And at that price it certainly seems like a good option for some wanting a fairly high efficiency small unit.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

But if you don't plan on having either a diesel generator or Honda 2000 aboard, then our 120v AC units just don't make sense for you.

I don't think a generator is the only option. You couldn't also run them on an inverter. Your units use about 1kw and if a motor soft starter is installed then a 1.5kw or certainly a 2kw inverter should be able to start and run the motor easily. If you don't have a huge water demand then a moderate amount of solar can provide the power you need.

[carstenb]

For those looking for more info on watermakers and not tired of reading about them - this thread is pretty exhaustive

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ose-93582.html

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by poiu

I don't think a generator is the only option. You couldn't also run them on an inverter. Your units use about 1kw and if a motor soft starter is installed then a 1.5kw or certainly a 2kw inverter should be able to start and run the motor easily. If you don't have a huge water demand then a moderate amount of solar can provide the power you need.

Oh you are exactly right....well partily in my view. We make water using our Honda 2000 (or 8K diesel genset) while at anchor BUT while motoring while under way we power the 30GPH water maker through a 2000W inverter. The 1.0hp motor uses 1100W. We also have some clients with LiFePO4 battery banks and about 1000W of solar that have no generator and run the unit exclusively through an inverter.

Now with that being said....
If someone has a standard lead acid bank and calls me asking if they can run our unit from their 400AH bank and 230W of solar and 55A stock yanmar alternator, I tell them NO and sell them on a Spectra. I look at the inverter powering method as an alternative or back-up if you generator goes down. But unless you have a "not normal" boat electrical system it will be hard to pull 90A at 12v from your battery bank for an hour to make water. Before switching to LiFePO4 I had a 900AH bank and would only run the water maker through the 2000W inverter when my high output alternator was spinning, otherwise the 90A load just crushed my battery bank.

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

Hi Monte. I met these guys through a friend who bought a distributed system from them. ie. One that can have the components spread out around the boat as apposed to a self contained unit.

I noticed that the translation in the English manual was a bit confusing, so I offered to help with that. I also chatted at length with the owner and designer of the systems and we swapped some ideas regarding some new plastics that would eliminate some of the 'O' rings in the Clark/Schenker energy recovery pump.

I have since installed 3 more of them.

Observations:

Price wise competitive provided you have cheap delivery.
Accurate energy use as advertised provided decent wire section is used, salinity and temperature of feed water are not way out of normal.
I like the auto shut-down, that feeds product water from the boats pressurized fresh water system.
I like the variable speed motor with soft start.
The quality of everything is superb, but of course the filters and housings etc are all pretty standard as they are buy-ins.
The kit comes with clear instructions, ample tubing (there will be left overs) and nothing is missing.
Charcoal filter is provided standard for flush circuit.
The vane pump comes with a spare head included in the price.
Less 'O' rings than the competition in their patented pump that gets away with less moving parts
http://www.eco-sistems.com/wp-conten...-ETD-trans.png
Ceramic parts in high wear areas.
I also like the accumulator that smooths out the whole system so it makes less of a clunk sound as the pistons change direction.
"Standard" 80mm membranes (IE other mfgrs will fit)

Negatives:
The vane pump MUST be installed well beneath the waterline for priming. It WILL cavitate if installed at WL. It can be prevented by providing a feed-pump but that will defeat the energy savings somewhat.
Vane pump will fail terminally if run dry for any short period.
Single pre-filter is not enough for dirty waters, and if you add an extra one there is a production drop. I modified one of the systems to have an extra 30 mic prefilter after the pump with a bypass circuit, so you can use it in bad water, or bypass it for normal use.

Obviously installation has a lot to do with how well it works and how long it remains trouble free. I always put the electrical parts of the system in a dry area, even if it means drilling a bulkhead to lead the cables through.

The necessity of having the vane pump located as low as possible makes it vulnerable to flooding damage. It is a permanent magnet motor, and will affect a fluxgate compass etc. I mounted 2 of pumps on rubber mounts for less noise transmission but those boats had a cabin inches away from the engine compartment.

If I was to buy a watermaker it would be this one.

All of the installations I did were tank-full on solar panels only for 3 hours of mid-day sun almost daily.

The Euro: Dollar is favorable at the moment, so their smallest unit comes in at just over $3000.00 for 25 l an hour (about 7 gal/h)

Shoo, did not intend to type so much, hope it helped.

OK I made a stupid mistake because I wasn't paying close attention. I was assuming (you know that's spelled) that there was a misspelling of the ECHO-TEC company and the ECO-Sistems and I confused the two to be ECHO-TEC so apologies to ECHO-TEC. Yeah uh, like I said I don't trash other companies, so I'm going out on a very long limb here and the Mods may agree. So this is all I will say about this from this point on and will not discuss it further. This is just another round of a stainless steel energy recovery pump copycat. We don't chose the materials we use lightly. This is where price shopping for the cheapest watermaker can and often does get far more expensive in the long run. Every company that has tried to build a SS copy of the pump has dropped it. What may seem logical on the outside is not always proven to be true on the inside. Caveat emptor.

Halden Marine Services | Marine Watermakers, Solar Panels, Wind Generators

[sy_gilana]

Slightly off topic, but we should all keep an eye out for Graphene based watermakers that have, in the lab, produced fresh water at minimal pressures, low enough to siphon through the membrane. Do some searching there is lots of info out there.

[newhaul]

Here's a katadyn 35E that will do the small, cheap, and can be run on solar factory reman unit Katadyn PUR Watermaker Survivor 35 Desalinator 12 Volt Factory Reman | eBay