Alternative Propulsion Thread

[fastcat435]

Here is a picture taken at night with the boat glowing without having had full outside light exposure, we have used this glow in the dark to increase safety at night and it came out beautiful even during the day.

p.s. I should have used a tripod , a bit shaken

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by osirissail

I love the technology of these new propulsion systems and would switch in a minute as soon as they become practical. FastCat post 161 on the Toyota is where I think the most hope seems to be now centered. If they can make cost-effective practical automotive systems then we can adapt that to our boats. But for now one interesting little detail pops up - here is a copy of the electric motor in the FastCat post 161: >>>>>

• 50- 145 kW
• Efficient, power dense, brushless permanent magnet motors
• Compact 10 inch length and 11 inches in diameter
• Light weight (90 - 110 lbs)
• Microprocessor-controlled inverter with sine wave drive
• CAN bus compatible
• Liquid cooled
• High torque: the 50 kW motor has 440 N.m peak torque
• Regenerative capacity
• Full power at 250-420 VDC input
• 94% efficiency <<<< Seriously good looking motor specs until you get down to the bottom where it says 250-420 VDC input - Divide that by 6 or 12 and where are you going to put all those T-104 or 8D batteries - 30 to 40+ batteries just to get the voltage and then how many multiples to get the amps? Maybe the lead keel as a battery is a good idea.
  - - It doesn't seem like anybody has gotten around the storage voltage per individual cell (1.2 to 3.6 depending upon technology) yet so huge numbers of individuals cells are needed to make up the required voltage to run these motors.

A new startup has under development a 4.7V Lithium Manganese Nickel Oxide (LMNS) with a higher energy density than . the energy density is 240 wh per kilo or almost double of the present battery's. http://www.etvmotors.com/advanced-battery.htm.
This same company is also developing a range of turbine generators with an efficiency of 37 to 39 % or comparable with diesel direct injection and a weight of less than 120 kilo for the 40 Kw hour version.
Many things are happening in this field thanks to the automotive industry
In the green motion setup we use 6 Mastervolt batteries in series giving us 152 volts nominal for a weight of 270 kilo and 26 Kw hour usable capacity The diesel powered generator we use has a weight of a bit over 200 kilo and a capacity of 22 KW with a sound enclosure. this generator does not only produce 152 nominal but also 25 volts for the house batteries it starts and stops automatically when needed and communicates true can bus with the batteries and the electronic controller. a picture of both are below.

[KGP]

Really interesting paint. How much does that stuff cost per gallon?

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by KGP

Really interesting paint. How much does that stuff cost per gallon?

To much really, we make the paint ourselves since it is not commercially available.
The pigment powder costs € 124.00 per kilo and 1 kilo is mixed with 1 liter of clear 2 k paint
we have sprayed 7 coats on top and closed it with 3 coats of clear 2 K
The fluorescent shine stay for up to 18 hours after light exposure it is brightest immediately after sunset and slowly diminishes over these 18 hours.
The pigment powder is course so we needed to sand a lot in between each coat.

[fastcat435]

Some more interesting news on the battery side from the Researchers at Japan’s National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST) .
They have developed a prototype of a battery that can simultaneously offer the high cell voltage of Li-ion cells and the large cell capacity of Ni-MH cells: a rechargeable nickel (cathode) / lithium metal (anode) battery using a hybrid aqueous and organic electrolyte separated by a superionic conductor glass ceramic film.

The proposed Ni-Li battery offers both a high cell voltage (3.49 V) and a large cell capacity (268 mAh/kg), which together create an ultrahigh energy density. The theoretical energy density calculated using only the active electrodes and cell voltage for the Ni-Li battery is 935 Wh/kg. With the same calculations, NiMh offers 214 Wh/kg, and cobalt oxide Li-ion cells offer 414 Wh/kg.

Developments like these will make electric driven yachts, cars , bikes a very good alternative for fossil fuel driven ones

[Hyprdrv]

To add to this thread on developments I've been in search of a Monitoring and Equization system and have the following 2 products that I'm looking real hard at.
PowerCheq
PowerCheq - Fleetcare Equipment
is a battery balancing piece of equipment that moves power around in the string to equilize the batteries. The issue with having more than one battery is not knowing what the individual ones are doing or if they are getting fully charged. in some cases you could be overcharging one and undercharging another. This seems to take care of that issue.

PakTrakr
PakTrakr Multi Battery Monitor Battery Pack Monitor
This device monitors each battery you have in a string, gives you individual status and Bank status. I've talked to both manufacturers and the 2 systems will work together with no conflicts. The neat thing about this over the Link-10 is that it gives you everything the 10 does and the individual battery status which allows you to see if one battery might be bringing down the rest of the pack. You can replace the bad one before it damages the rest. Claims by both manufactures are high but from what I've read at several sites, EV and Home Solar Systems, they are VERY happy with them other than the cost of course. These may be on my Holiday list!

Steve in Solomons

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

This trend however can be reversed, by carefully searching and looking for the items using less energy...

Sadly, you are ignoring human nature. As we come up with ways for our current gadgets to use less and less energy, most people will simply want more and more gadgets! Those who are willing to get by on less are always going to be in the minority. It's just the way that human beings are.

[fastcat435]

Off course you are right however there are people that are concerned with the energy consumption their boat/house and gadgets are not really needed on a boat or are used very limited, the real power consumption on a boat is cooling/heating/propulsion/lighting/instruments and autopilot while cruising and in these fields terrific progress is made continually.
On the other hand energy generation thru solar wind and water generation is also improving all the time.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Sadly, you are ignoring human nature. As we come up with ways for our current gadgets to use less and less energy, most people will simply want more and more gadgets! Those who are willing to get by on less are always going to be in the minority. It's just the way that human beings are.

Totally agree.

If there were a way to have one little battery that would hold truly amazing amounts of usable energy I would have a large freezer, clothes washer, watermaker, etc, etc, etc and on and on like that.......for sure.

[Hyprdrv]

Well I guess I'm confused.
Believe me I've read as many posts and talked to a lot of people on the subject of Hybrids and I'm missing something. I'm not going to try and convince anyone that this is the way to go, I've made up my mind and I like what I got. But I don't get what some people are saying about the systems. So Educate me..

Let's assume there are 3 types of sailer's out there. Racers, cruisers, and Greene's.
Let's also assume (Over Simplifying Here) that the Racer's only want to go fast.
The Cruiser's want to get there in comfort.
The Greene's want to do it without polluting.
Is it possible to do all 3 with the same boat? No
How about 2 out of 3? I would think so.
Point is you can't have everything. Each person has his or her reason as to what they want out of their boat. We also have our individual budgets to do what we want with our boats and some of us are spending money as far as Hybrids go. One day we will get it right and can have all 3 boats in one but not quite yet. Nobody is arguing that point but it ticks me off that we aren't allowed to try and move toward that point without some people calling others dumb for trying. There are people on this and other boards that have mathematically shown that we are wrong and can't sail without it costing more than using a couple of diesel engines(Oxymoron??). Then again there are some who say they can do it for a lot less. Who's right? Doesn't it depend on how you sail? Isn't it a matter of how fast you want to get someplace, how hard you push your boat and equipment, what level of comfort you want?
A friend of mine has a 28' mono and an outboard that works most of the time. No inverters, converters, or such. a single 12volt battery to power his running lights is it. He has electrical issues do to old wiring. No bathroom (a bucket I think), no kitchen, no electronics, and a combo/table/nav/bunk area. His girlfriend stays on our boat any chance she gets. We have a blast sailing with him because he can put the rail in the water and go fast. So we have a racer with no comfort and green when he doesn't start his motor or dump waste overboard.
I've got a Cat that is decadent. My lovely wife wouldn't have it any other way. For that matter I'm seeing a lot of advantages as well. It's a Hybrid, notice I didn't say all Electric, there is a difference since I have a genset, and I can sail all day without starting that Genset. I don't need to run it getting off the dock or getting on. If I go on the hook for a few days I will start the generator and if I get caught in a headwind for a couple hours I'll start it then. Can I do hull speed, around 8 to 10 knots? Yup. I've also gone faster. Does this make me a racer? I don't think so but it's plenty fast enough for me at this point and I'm happy even though I guess I could be going faster (what 1..2 knots?) if i didn't have all those batteries on board. Green when I don't run the Genset. Cruiser.. You bet, pass the ice and change the channel. Two out of 3 I think.
Is a Hybrid more complicated? That is so dependent on the individual's ability to comprehend and the boat. How many of you out there can rebuild a motor and sail drive or for that matter change a Joker Valve?
The point I wish to make is that this is a new technology that is moving forward rapidly. There are followers and then there are leaders. It's perfectly ok to take a wait and see attitude but don't shoot the scout because he's out in front. Just a few years ago there was enough nay sayers out there that I'm surprised at the number of boats and systems coming on line. I've followed the EV and Private Solar system crowd since the start. I've talked to the Senior Designer at Tesla Engineers and spoken with several of the leading System Engineers on Solar and Propulsion. Nobody has it 100% and I don't pretend to understand it all but there is enough happening on many fronts that the nay sayers have gotten quiet. There's only one technology, the battery, that is holding us back from a giant leap forward. It's not going to take long to crack this problem. So at least look at the systems that are offered and offer constructive criticism. Not all the answers are going to come from one company but we may be seeing a piece of the puzzle each time.

Steve in Solomons

[fastcat435]

Hallo Steve

I think it is possible to go fast in comfort and go green at the same time.
The only negative is that it is costly, much more so than just having a diesel/saildrive combination at least to purchase, owning this on the long run might be cheaper, specially once the high powered lithium batteries start to come down in price and they will, since high volume production and competition always does that.
You have a good combination of green and comfortable the ingredient missing is speed and to get the speed up the weight needs to go down and that costs.
Chances are that when you need to change your ( probably ) lifeline batteries with a weight
of more than 550 kilo or 1200 lbs you can change for Lithium units with less than half the weight and double your all electric range at the same time.

[bill good]

G'day all
FastCat It appears there has been the main thrust on special motors. What work did you do on using standard industrial variable speed electrical motors? There seems to be a lot of extra expense for a few small % gain. Given my calculation for my 36' cat approx 5T with 3HP at the prop will be 6.5Kts it would only take a soundproofed small 240V AC generator to make it work. I would be happy with shaft drives (Assuming propspeed will keep my props clean now under test). Just having electric motors instead of noisy & hard to get at motors for service would be of some gain. Regen would only be of limited advantage if & when the cost of new tech batteries become available.
Regards Bill Goodward

[fastcat435]

Hallo Bill the funds where not only spend on a higher efficiency, other things that we have worked on where weight only 34 kilo for 10 KW , watertightness , the motors have a positive pressure inside by .5 bar to keep water out, another advantage of having the motors sit in the water is the excellent cooling and no heat is generated inside the boat and on a 10 KW motor the heat generated can be up to 1000 watt.
Yes in order to move a 5 ton monohull at a speed of 6.5 knots 3 hp would be enough however going upwind in force 6 to get into a harbor will need triple that much power or around 8 KW for a speed of 5 knots. generation is not only to fill the batteries but also on longer cruises to use for all items in board the nice part of generation while sailing is that at same time autopilot, chartplotter, fridge, freezer, nav. lights, hot water heater and a few other power consuming unit. having up to 4 kw available depending on sailing speed when you want it has a big advantage for world cruisers, i recall that I needed to start a motor up to replenish the batteries or just for a warm shower.

[osirissail]

Hypdrv - Nothing confusing. Every major advance happens in stages. The Auto industry tried to long jump from gasoline to electric and it did not work so they went the Hybrid route and that did work. As the technology gets invented and proved you can then shift more away from fossil fuels and into "green" systems. But with any "start-up" technology it will be expensive and complicated during the transition.
- - The ultimate "Green" are the cruisers and racers with -no- engines. With cruisers it is a point of pride to do it the "old way" while with the racers it is all about weight and speed. With traditional diesels it is all about reliability and expense. A proven technology with a worldwide support (parts and repairs) base. Hybrids would fall somewhere between the two. But if folks were not willing to "lead the way" by buying and paying for the costs of developing and refining the "transitional technology" the shift would never happen at all. But the "buyers" have to have both the money and the morality to see the "green" future is worthwhile. The rest of us will "pollute" - not because we want to, but because that is the only way we are going to be able to afford to go out cruising - - until you "leaders" pave the way for cost-effective "green" systems to appear.
- - - - - -
- - Fastcat435 -One concept question - Does your system allow the motors to operate directly from the Genset? Or does the genset power a battery charger that supplies the batteries that feed the motors? In other words can the batteries be switched out of the system and the motors driven solely by the genset?

[Hyprdrv]

Osirissail,
It's been frustrating to see the comments made that it's not doable, rather than "how do we make it work and under what conditions does it work?" I would much rather talk about putting together the pieces rather than destroying the idea which seems to happen to often. This is probably why we can't get more than a few to participate in this discussion. To often they raise an idea and are shot down rather than exploring the concept. It was refreshing to see your question because I was just talking to an Onan Rep yesterday about the direct power from the genset to the motors which is what I would consider as an emergency backup.
My 410 has the AC Genset going to a rectifier, to 144v DC, which then goes to the Brusa Charger to the Batteries. All power is taken off the battery bank. Well what if I want to through 80A directly to the motors? I could accomplish this with an A/B switch and disconnect from the string but I would also have to isolate the motors from the string so I could run lights,NAV, and other essentials when doing this from the batteries. It seems that the batteries can pull down a lot more power than I can put into it but if I was on a low demand (emergency mode) without the genset I could continue pulling down on the batteries for longer and still have full genset power to the motors until I ran out of diesel. I need to map out the wiring to see if this is feasible then figure out if it makes sense to do it. I'd also like to check the frequency of the power at several places in the distribution.

Steve in Solomons