Motorsailers? Trawlers?

[skyhawk]

I'm not sure which sub forum to even put this line of questioning....
seems like this forum is mostly sailing enthusiast, but I'll throw this out there

in my relatively short time on this forum as a dreamer I don't recall seeing much mention of motor sailing boats
such as one I've seen a bit on youtube, the Nordhaven 56

curious about your thoughts and comments....

Do they just not come up much because they are jacks of all trades and masters of none?

I'm wondering how much fuel most cruisers actually can save using sail over just a full on MV?

How would it compare to a typical pure SV?

Are they worth the hit in air draft and bridge clearance?

Since time spent moored or at anchor is obviously quite high for this lifestlye, roll of any monohull is a big negative for me.....Just watched a video about using planes (birds/fish) for stabilization, and I know only just a bit about the active fin systems and gyro systems....

DW & I love to explore and travel visiting new towns, parks, points of interest and for the last several years have owned a motorhome RV that we've traveled a fair bit in with our kids. I've been around small boats most of my life, and lately as I'm kicking dreams of retirement into high gear I've been daydreaming about taking our travels to the water.

Anyway, starting many years ago I remember thinking that if I were to ever do it something like a trawler appealed to me more than a sail boat. Partially becasue I don't like the enclosed feel. I suppose back then it was the thought of having more options under power to go where I want when I want.....

Seeing some stuff on youtube though really opened my eyes to sailing....travelling a bit more off-grid and not being quite as dependent to the expenses to be paid at the fuel pump. Catamarans really appeal to us for the more open living space...and my wife like the idea especially of reduced roll while at anchor.

I can see us coastal cruising East Coast of the US, down into the Bahamas a Carribean likely....maybe into the great lakes a bit... at some point rivers and canals of Europe are really appealing and honestly my wife would choose to start there

[valhalla360]

A lot of "types" are marketing as much as anything else.

The Nordhaven is really a trawler and they slapped a small mast on it. Very nice and very pricey boats but the sails are used as often as not for stabilization not so much propulsion. Lots of trawlers have smaller stabilization sails that can be set. This is just a little bigger and could provide some propulsion. Might be useful for an ocean crossing where you could get a few days with wind out of a convenient direction but if your goal is sailing, not the best choice.

Motorsailor as a term has evolved and it never did have a firm definition. At one time, pleasure sailboats came in 3 varieties (engineless, auxiliary & motorsailor). Engineless is self explanatory. Auxiliary would have a very small motor that could help out in a pinch but would be just barely enough to maneuver and keep the boat going at very slow speed. Motorsailors had an engine big enough to get the boat up to hull speed and hold her there in most common conditions. There was never a really hard and fast line between auxiliary and motorsailor.

The thing is pretty much every cruising boat sold today would qualify as a Motorsailor by that standard. It's rare to find a modern cruising sailboat that can't hold hull speed for extended periods of time.

Coastal cruising, most are still beholden to the fuel pump and efficiency is generally worse for a boat. We had a small pretty efficient catamaran and at 6kt we would get about 6mpg. By comparison, pulling a 28ft 5th wheel we got just shy of 13mpg with our old diesel pickup. The new gas truck gets around 10mpg. A bigger trawler, you might be looking at 2-3 mpg, so even if you are covering far fewer miles, you can still burn a lot of fuel.

If you want to explore towns and site of interest, expect to either have a hassle or pay up for a marina slip. Built up areas typically have limited locations to go ashore and launching the dingy and finding a place to it up for the day often comes with a small cost and level of hassle. It's not like stepping out the door and you can go take a walk or hop in the truck and you can drive to a site. You can boondock in an RV but it's usually in the middle of nowhere or you are camping in walmart parking lots...very similar with boats.

Also, generally speaking, boats are more expensive than RVs in just about every aspect from buying, maintaining to storing. Something like a Nordhaven will make a top of the line diesel pusher motorhome look cheap.

Now I'm not suggesting it's a bad idea to get a boat and go cruising. It's awesome but it sounds like you have a set of rose colored glasses on, so just wanted to make sure you considered the trade offs as some of your comments suggest you are seeing only the positives.

[Lost Horizons]

Originally Posted by skyhawk

Nordhaven 56

curious about your thoughts and comments....

Do they just not come up much because they are jacks of all trades and masters of none?

They are just prohibitively expensive for most people.

[skyhawk]

I just used that nordhavn as an example...just because that was the video I was watching at time.
I assumed there would be other brands/models of motorsailers

I suppose to valhallas point, most all cruising sailboats are in a way motorsailers....I meant more of the motor yacht style....like a trawler, etc...

Seems one advantage for them would be I'd assume a relatively larger engine than on a SV would be helpful in times when you're bucking a strong tide or current.

I suppose there are just not a lot of them in general....

[darylat8750]

The Nordhaven is a wonderful boat. Way out of my price range.

I have a trawler and enjoy it. I burn about 3 gallons an hour at 8MPH. For costal cruising the fuel cost + maintenance is probably close to fuel + maintenance of a sailboat with equal accommodation. Sails and rigging on a 46+ foot sailboat is a significant expense. Most older sailboats would have to be 50+ to have the living area of our 44ft trawler.

The main disadvantage of a motorsailer is that you have the expense of a sails and gear. Two main advantages: The sails dampen the roll, and you have lots of lines to play with. .

[dannc]

Skyhawk,

Go read, https://www.amazon.com/Voyaging-Unde.../dp/0071767339, it covers stabilization systems, needed HP, and a whole lot more. If one could only read one book on trawlers, it is the one I just linked.

Later,
Dan

[Lost Horizons]

There are barely any current manufacturer that has a motorsailer in their line. Nauticat was one of the most prominent ones and went out of business recently. Their boats were also very expensive. Island Packet has one motorsailer in their line, which is not very popular. I talked once to an Island Packet dealer about them; his opinion was that it is the only IP model that he does not like, for it neither sails nor motors well. His position was that a trawler is a better choice. Personally, I am not sure why. The only logical reason is added complexity of the rig and sail control equipment. Then again, two major benefits of a motorsailer over a trawler are stabilization with sails and second propulsion means. First one is solved on trawlers by other means, second is solved by towing services for most of coastal cruisers, which is the majority of boaters.
Fuel saving is not important for most people in real life. I don’t think there are people who use sails primarily to conserve fuel, unless off course you are a long range cruiser away from fuel services, such as when crossing an ocean in which case a second propulsion means is also beneficial.

[Nord Sal]

Besides Nauticat, Fischers and Finnsailers come to mind as motorsailers. I believe Willard made one too.

My little boat, 32'LOA, is similar. Trålaren literally translates as "Trawler."

[Wayne hoath]

Motor sailors won’t sail to windward (neither do a lot of cats) as well as a pure sailboat but some will still sail very well and get you across the Atlantic free of charge. Checkout this Fisher 46. The best of all worlds. https://ancasta.com/boats-for-sale/u...46-mkii/31013/

[Ifitsworthdoing]

Excellent question @skyhawk, and one I was working my way towards asking, too! Like you, my inclination is towards finding a just about affordable well-specc'd and comfortable boat that has motor(s) as its primary propulsion but is able to substitute/augment this by wind power ... and one way to do this is to use kite sails on a trawler (e.g. the French LibertyKite.com) - at €2k for their larger 20squ.metre model that seems pretty good value.

The comments above are quite right about true monohull motorsailers clearly constituting a compromise and thus offering mediocre performance as either a sailing yacht or a motorboat. This seems also the explanation why they never really caught on commercially and are currently in what seems to be terminal decay - although used models can offer good value and many owners are adamant about their benefits.

The other question you mention is lateral stability, and this is precisely why we are going to commission a non-sailing version of a sailing catamaran this coming summer (not forgetting also that cats are more efficiently driven boats than monohulls) as my wife who has spinal injuries requires a stable platform. As novice boaters of retirement age we are not attracted to learning the intricate art of proper sailing although we do have certain intentions about catching a breeze to give us a lift at times (more on this below) and feel closer in spirit to the sailing community than to the owners of what are sometimes derogatorily called 'gin palaces'.

Interestingly, this is a path that Florida's EndevourCats has trodden since the 1990s when they redesigned their sailing cats to become powerboats. France's Fontaine-Pajot and the Beneteau-owned Lagoon brand as well as South Africa's Robertson & Caine (makers of the Leopard/Moorings branded boats) are the world's premier makers of parallel offerings of sailing and motor powered cats, and older boats (often out of charter fleets) from their yards can be quite affordable.

Given your North American location, an interesting option to look at might be Aspen's unusual line of proa type multihulls built in Washington state. These are asymmetric powercats - the smaller of their models are even trailerable ...

There is no denying that potentially having to maintain both a sailing rig and one or more reasonably powerful internal combustion engine(s) - although we aren't talking about speed boats here - is both costly and involves a lot of storage space lost to other uses. Not least for that reason my plan is to go down the electric route (and a Mediterranean base will allow us to benefit from fairly good solar panel irradiation) which despite a high upfront investment will reduce ongoing fuel and engine maintenance expenses to a minimum while also showing the way forward in 'green boating' terms.

Looking forward I plan to investigate the utility of installing windsurf and/or small powered Flettner rotor sails on the four corners of my future trawler yacht. Assuming adequate performance this should give us wind propulsion up to about 6 knots - roughly the same as our expected cruising speed on electric power while preserving the ability to traverse low bridges without having to lower a mast and rigging. Watch this space, maybe this odd approach will catch on ...?

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by skyhawk

Do they just not come up much because they are jacks of all trades and masters of none?

Yes, as a Trawler a motorsailer doesn't have as much space. As a sailboat it is slow and requires the main engine to be running in most cases. For a trawler person, the sail aspect is annoying and inconvenient. For a sailor the motor is unecessary.

For those looking for massive fuel savings and distance with a trawler, a motorsailer is a good compromise. For most it is too much of a compromise.

Originally Posted by skyhawk

I'm wondering how much fuel most cruisers actually can save using sail over just a full on MV?

Significantly more fuel than a sailboat. Significantly less than a trawler.

Originally Posted by skyhawk

How would it compare to a typical pure SV?

Apples and Oranges. I'm not sure what the right question is, but this is definitely the wrong question.

Originally Posted by skyhawk

Are they worth the hit in air draft and bridge clearance?

Air draft is lower than most sailboats of the same size, yet higher than most trawlers of the same size. The word 'worth' infers a cost or value. I guess I also don't understand this question either.

Originally Posted by skyhawk

roll of any monohull is a big negative for me.....

If this is the case, then you are best suited to remain in the RV world or look at a catamaran. Trawlers roll when underway and in an anchorage with wake or chop. Sailboats and motor sailors roll much less underway unless they are in a following sea. Any monohull is going to roll in an anchorage with chop or wake.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by skyhawk

Seems one advantage for them would be I'd assume a relatively larger engine than on a SV would be helpful in times when you're bucking a strong tide or current.

I suggest you do a little reading on "hull speed". It's the speed at which you need massive amounts of HP to go any faster (it applies to displacement as opposed to planning boats). And the increase in power demand is so high that it's generally considered pointless to throw more power at it.

Back when sailboats really had a "auxilliary" engine, your logic made sense.

A 45ft displacement (35ft water line length) boat will have a hull speed of about 8kts. The shape of the hull will make a little difference but very little (very skinny hulled catamarans are a different game).

A old 45ft monohull with a 10hp motor, would really struggle in a lot of conditions. Even in good conditions, it might struggle to get over 4kts. With a strong head wind or other adverse conditions, it might not be able to make any headway or even be pushed backwards.

Modern 45ft monohulls will have something in 40-75hp range and can happily run at hull speed in most conditions and even against a strong headwind will generally still be able to make decent headway.

There really is little advantage to adding more HP unless you switch to a planning hull.

Motor sailors were really a transitional design that allowed room for a bigger engine but modern engines are so much smaller, they can do just fine in a more traditional hull design without the disadvantages.

[Pizzazz]

Originally Posted by skyhawk

I can see us coastal cruising East Coast of the US, down into the Bahamas a Carribean likely....maybe into the great lakes a bit... at some point rivers and canals of Europe are really appealing and honestly my wife would choose to start there

In my classification, you have:

#Sailboats, 40-50 ft would be a good size for a retiring couple. The major draw is sailing to the wind and easy to find slips. Yes, they do roll at unprotected anchorages but most of the time you will either find a good anchorage or dock at a marina. The sailboat will cross an ocean no problem.

# Cats, 40-50 ft again, much more space, more expensive, great for cruising but difficult to find inexpensive slips. If you want to cross European rivers you can take down the mast and go all the way to the Black Sea.

# Motor yachts or sports cruisers, 50-60 ft is the most popular range, luxurious, approx. double the price of the cat and 3x the price of a mono. Will not cross an ocean without some heavy modifications (not recommended). You have to deal with engine noise but you can go quite fast over short distances. Ideal for the Med.

# Trawlers, such as the Nordhavns. These are really specialized boats, designed to cross oceans, large propellers, slow diesels, very solid. Fantastic boats but unless you plan to cross oceans often you will find out you are better servers either by a cat or a cruiser.

I would recommend you consider the first three options. In terms of fuel consumption, a sailboat does around 10 nmpg, a cat slightly less and the power boats range from 0.5 to 2 nmpg. You can easily user a sailboat as a motor cruiser by adding 200 gallons of fuel in flexible tanks that you would only fill up to the max when you anticipate a major crossing. It will be a lot cheaper than a motor boat.

[David Ess]

Another type of motorsailor I havnt seen mentioned is a trawlervwith a 'kite-sail'. Apparentlyvthese are very good and we're considering such purselves.

[TheLuckyone]

Dylan Winter (of KeepTurningLeft fame) just picked himself up a Fisher 25. The weather up there in the UK means he can get more time moving on the water thanks to the pilot house, as he's less inclined to sit in a Centaur cockpit in the bad weather.

I could deride his decision, but I'm fairly sure the first time I'm sitting in my Centaur"s cockpit, dripping wet and uncomfortably cold (or sitting in the cabin wishing I was moving) I'll be thinking that Fisher ain't such a bad idea...