Should I be ashamed?

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I amazed at this thread. We have a holding tank and we use it. We empty it when we are in open water.

those of you without holding tanks - what do you do when you are in a marina? Just let it run overboard?

Ever been to the River Hamble? Maybe 10,000 boats, virtually none of them have a holding tank, because the UK does not require one. Nothing could induce me to hop in the water there.

No matter hat you may believe, perhaps you need to think about the rest of us and how we feel about having our boat anchored in your waste.

An interesting read through this thread.

I agree with you Carstenb I'm one of the very very few in my state who installed a holding tank. There are no pump out stations here, maybe one in the south, but that's the only one I know off, so that's a weeks sailing away.

I would be one of the few even in our disgusting river that 'try' to hold my waste until further down the river.

I don't believe at all the CF myth that salt water kills pathogens and virus's. Love to see any scientific evidence of that. But what we do get here in our state is our shell fish farms get shut down from time to time and at least once in recent times 'boats' were blamed.

Most Australian sewage treatment plants 'treat' sewage and only water is pumped to the ocean. When it rains heavily here though, raw sewage is pumped into our river.

To me, it's simply common sense. All boats with heads should have holding tanks as a minimum and it should be illegal to dump when anchored, close to beaches, or in rivers and other pristine wilderness areas.

[DumnMad]

The real problem is paranoia.
If some of you were consistent you would never eat out since restaurants are big spreaders of gastrointestinal diseases. Neither would you visit the tropical islands since the diseases are spread through drinking water and mosquitos. India would be way out of bounds!
You certainly wouldn't live on a boat with gas on board and a strong risk of fungus in the cupboards, or, go sailing where big waves might roll you.

Most of us are careful about hygene but not afraid of the occasional risk.

[Raythesailor]

Cruissing in Greece this year I have noticed a large increase in what I can only describe as "Soapy Water".
Large patches of bubbles which I assume have been pumped out all at once from what must be fair sized boats. Not wishing to point a finger the area is well populated by what are commonly known as "Super Yachts", both motor and sail.

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

E. Coli cannot survive outside the human gut.

Nonsense. E. Coli outbreaks, including the current Chipotle mess in the U.S., are commonly attributed to transmission on produce.

Rash of E. coli cases highlights foodborne illness problem | Fox News

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Nonsense. E. Coli outbreaks, including the current Chipotle mess in the U.S., are commonly attributed to transmission on produce.

Rash of E. coli cases highlights foodborne illness problem | Fox News

Next time you see a Chipotle burrito float by your boat... don't eat it.

Correction: e. Coli cannot survive in seawater or cold temperatures outside the human gut.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Raythesailor

Cruissing in Greece this year I have noticed a large increase in what I can only describe as "Soapy Water".
Large patches of bubbles which I assume have been pumped out all at once from what must be fair sized boats. Not wishing to point a finger the area is well populated by what are commonly known as "Super Yachts", both motor and sail.

Noticed that too, on the North Ionian, the area with more cruising boats, ours and the big ones.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Correction: e. Coli cannot survive in seawater or cold temperatures outside the human gut.

Escherichia coli (Faecal Colibacteria ) can not only survive between 8ºC and 55º but grow, on marine waters too:

"The optimal conditions for growth are a temperature of 98.6°F, with a range of 45 to 114F."

and regardingcontamination:

"Escherichia coli is found on fish and shellfish taken from sewage-polluted waters."
http://www.hi-tm.com/1908/SECTION-2-D-1908.pdf

Intestinal Enterococci ..."tend to survive longer in water environments than E. coli (or thermotolerant coliforms), are more resistant to drying and are more resistant to chlorination. Intestinal enterococci have been used in testing of raw water as an index of faecal pathogens that survive longer than E. coli.."
http://www.bvsde.ops-oms.org/bvsacg/e/cd-cagua/guias/b.parametos/2.HIT/microbologicos/6.04.pdf

"Their abundance in human and animal feces, the ease with which they are cultured, and their correlation with human health outcomes in fresh and marine waters have led to their widespread use as tools for assessing recreational water quality worldwide"..
Enterococci in the Environment

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by Raythesailor

Cruissing in Greece this year I have noticed a large increase in what I can only describe as "Soapy Water".
Large patches of bubbles which I assume have been pumped out all at once from what must be fair sized boats. Not wishing to point a finger the area is well populated by what are commonly known as "Super Yachts", both motor and sail.

I've seen soapy looking foam 6" deep for miles along a wild unpopulated NZ beach.

On another occasion had to fight a local council scientist who claimed foam along an estuary shoreline was proof of polution.

Under certain conditions seawater foams naturally.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

I've seen soapy looking foam 6" deep for miles along a wild unpopulated NZ beach.

On another occasion had to fight a local council scientist who claimed foam along an estuary shoreline was proof of polution.

Under certain conditions seawater foams naturally.

Especially if there is a lot of brown seaweed or algae around. The waves mash it up and the released algin foams.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Polux

Escherichia coli (Faecal Colibacteria ) can not only survive between 8ºC and 55º but grow, on marine waters too:

"The optimal conditions for growth are a temperature of 98.6°F, with a range of 45 to 114F."

and regardingcontamination:

"Escherichia coli is found on fish and shellfish taken from sewage-polluted waters."
http://www.hi-tm.com/1908/SECTION-2-D-1908.pdf

Intestinal Enterococci ..."tend to survive longer in water environments than E. coli (or thermotolerant coliforms), are more resistant to drying and are more resistant to chlorination. Intestinal enterococci have been used in testing of raw water as an index of faecal pathogens that survive longer than E. coli.."
http://www.bvsde.ops-oms.org/bvsacg/e/cd-cagua/guias/b.parametos/2.HIT/microbologicos/6.04.pdf

"Their abundance in human and animal feces, the ease with which they are cultured, and their correlation with human health outcomes in fresh and marine waters have led to their widespread use as tools for assessing recreational water quality worldwide"..
Enterococci in the Environment

Our local rivers in the summer months are tested twice weekly to keep an eye on e.coli counts. Also, in an effort to reduce e.coli outbreaks our state government has introduced registration of small scale egg farms.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

99.99% pure is good enough for me.

http://water.epa.gov/polwaste/vwd/up...010-Report.pdf

PAGE 7

Performance Evaluation Report for Type I MSDs

The Electro Scan device removed almost all
pathogen indicators (99.99% or greater).

Also on page 41:

The Electro Scan device removed almost all fecal coliform, E. coli, and enterococci (99.99% or greater).

These treatment systems are power hungry but work well

Someone earlier was bashing Super yachts for their discharges, but they usually have installed a much higher environmental standard for sewage treatment than the small cruiser.

For Super yachts we specify the higher standard Type 2 to a better than Alaska State standards, rather than the above Type 1 which is a lower standard.

Nothing but clear water comes out and the retained sludge is less than 5% for offshore disposal

Typical Treatment Principle

TheTankMSD Economy Type II Marine Sanitation Device is a biological aerobic (bacteria and air) marine sewage treatment system. Liquid and solid wastes are removed from the water by bacteria naturally contained in sewage.

TheTankMSD consists of three treatment stages; aeration, clarification, and disinfection. In the aeration chamber (stage 1), the bacteria grow and multiply using the sewage as their food supply. This action reduces the quantity and size of the solid matter. In the clarification chamber (stage 2), the bacterial floc is separated from the treated solid matter. The treated water is clear and free from solids, however, the liquid must be disinfected prior to discharge overboard to kill any disease-causing bacteria. Disinfection is accomplished in the clarification chamber (stage 3). Flow through these three stages is caused by direct displacement. When new sewage flows into the aeration chamber, an equal volume flows through the clarification chamber. This volume, in turn, displaces an equal volume from the clarification chamber into the disinfection chamber, and overboard. No internal sewage pumps are necessary.

[exMaggieDrum]

Harvesting and eating mussels, clams, and oysters is a major deal in WA state. People go way out of their way to take them and eat them. People get very upset when they can't. But the state routinely closes areas to all clamming when there is ANY chance of sewers leaking in to an area. Then they will go out and do rigorous tests of the beds to make sure the fecal bacteria loads are down to an acceptable level. It dissipates by dilution through water movement, not because the bacteria die.

Any one who claims that salt water effectively kills fecal bacteria is sadly mistaken. Unless you just don't believe in science AND practical experience.

[lifeofreilly57]

Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599

I have a question: Is there a law anywhere in N.America that says you MUST have a toilet on a boat? ... If not, then the old 'bucket & chuckit' system can and should prevail.
Also, I believe manufacturers of marine toilets and associated paraphernalia my well be the culprits of driving legislation to enforce installation of all this crappery.
Anyhoo, being a bit of a green freak myself and thinking it was the 'right' thing to do, I had a holding tank installed in my 24' cutter, including a Y valve and a Macerator pump. When the plumber had finished, I discovered his handy work, and the equipment he installed, took up most of the space in my Vee berth storage bins . . . I'm now very sorry I had the system installed.
After launching my boat for the first time, and knowing the plumber did not test the system, I instructed all crew members to NOT use the head until I tested and approved it for use. Unfortunately for me, my 3yo great grandson was not included in the discussion. Needless to say, when he had to go . . . he went. Furthermore, he flushed the system vigorously, pumping it far more than was required. I will admit, he did a good job of it.
It was only when my wife entered the forward cabin, we became aware there had been a severe leak at the angled outlet fitting at the joker valve and so, I had a very crappy job yesterday, cleaning up the mess.

Don't know about your neck of the woods but I know in my home waters peeing off the side of the boat is technically an offense. Anything inside of the 3 mile limit is an offense. Any boat found with a marine head and no tank would get the crap fined out of it.
Dumping a bucket over the side? Right, you'd definitely get your but kicked.
Funny enough the nearest major city was dumping millions of gallons of raw sewage into the bay every time there was a heavy rain up until a few years ago but peeing over the side was a a fineable offense. Been that way for many, many years. I'm not complaining though, the waters are cleaner than I can ever remember since the 1960's, it's made a huge difference, but the biggest difference was in pollution control from surrounding cities and property developments.
For me to be in compliance when in the "zone" I've put on a locking handle on my through hull, my system has a holding tank, direct overboard dump, and a macerator pump to dump the tank when out beyond the 3 mile limit. Without that locked handle I'd be out of compliance and possibly face a fine for it.
Getting it pumped out is another issue, when the no dumping rules went into effect the government supplied funds for local marinas to install "free" pump out stations for public use to alleviate the availability issue. Most used those funds to build themselves beautiful new docks and put the pump out stations next to their hauling pits which made them all but impossible to use, others seem to be always "out of order" unless of course you have a boat in their marina, one local yacht club took the funds and then forces non-members to pay. Not a good way to get volunteer compliance.
There are two marinas who did make the stations easy to access and kept them running all these years and I applaud their civil mindedness in keeping to the letter of the original intent. Why no compliance enforcement has been forced on the others is beyond me. But don't you dare pee over the side!
It is in our own best interest to keep the waters we cruise clean and disease free, it's just not made any easier by government dictates put down with little common sense in their execution.
Work in China for awhile if you want to see what happens when there's no rules.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum

Harvesting and eating mussels, clams, and oysters is a major deal in WA state. People go way out of their way to take them and eat them. People get very upset when they can't. But the state routinely closes areas to all clamming when there is ANY chance of sewers leaking in to an area. Then they will go out and do rigorous tests of the beds to make sure the fecal bacteria loads are down to an acceptable level. It dissipates by dilution through water movement, not because the bacteria die.

Any one who claims that salt water effectively kills fecal bacteria is sadly mistaken. Unless you just don't believe in science AND practical experience.

I think exMaggieDrum, the science in this area is believed to be 'green' propoganda.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I think exMaggieDrum, the science in this area is believed to be 'green' propoganda.

Seems hard to distinguish between the two these days. Sad.