The BVI's, a word of caution

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Favoured Tack

Whatever happened to “The Right of Innocent Passage”?

Rights go along with force

They are armed, they know you arnt

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I don't see pushback happening. Look at all the red here https://globalepidemics.org/key-metr...d-suppression/ . In another group I participate in about Digital Nomads there is periodic discussion about the value of various passports for travel. The value of US passports, along with UK passports, has plummeted.

Unless the US gets our act together we'll find ourselves much less welcome in other countries and where we can go there will be restrictions. So mask up. Distance. Outdoors is safER not safe. A tent in a parking lot is not outdoors, just uncomfortable. STFH. Give those who must work outside the home the respect not to run out for an "essential" Starbucks latte.

Rant over.

Lol, so your freedoms depend on the color the government, who’s limiting your freedom, colors a boxes with their little magic markers?

Riiiiiight.

This will do for safety™ the same that all the “terrorist” laws and torture post 9/11 did.

It’s funny what people will do for far fetched fears.



*Im actually typing this at a local cafe, because F’ Starbucks, if you’re scared mask up and hide behind your toilet paper wall in your basement, but I’ll still enjoy my life even if it means a scary sub 1% chance of death

[contrail]

Originally Posted by sail4evr

The title of this thread is kind of oen ended so I will digress from the issue of illegal entry.
I have a charter boat, self operated and when we bring guests from ST Thomas or pick them up in the BVI, we pay a cruising fee other wise known a s a cruising permit. Taking guests other than your son is illegal with out the permit.
The bvi has a history of trying to get charter boats to pay the hotel and occupancy tax, but was shot down and or held off by increases in the cruising tax.
Recently, I don't know when it started but AirBnB started collecting the hotel & occupancy tax for the BVI and sending it on to the BVi. Now that is fime for hotels and shoreside facilities because there is no way to tax all those independents. Quite different for charter boats who have to pay to get into the country with guests.
Bottom line is people who charter boats through AirBnB will pay a double tax. I have brought this to the attention of AirBNb many times and have an ongoing thread with AirBnB support where in they keep saying they are referring the matter to other support personel, but noresonse other than to quote their deal with the BVI. SO was it their resposibiity to notify AirBnB that they were collecting a cruising tax?
To my knowledge VRBO (HomeAway) doesn't charge boating charters a hotel and occupancy tax.
It is hard to believe that the BVI doesn't know that AirBnB is charging charter boats and they knowingly charge a cruising tax on top of that. This would likely be called double dipping. I am all-inclusive except for fees which I pass on to the guests. I hesitate to use the word conspiracy by the BVI gov to doube-dip in this manner because the government has been known to make stupid mistakes.
Since it is the guests who get screwed, I suggest VRBO as the solution since AirBnB is unwilling to comment on this issue 10% of the charter fee is a significant amount of money.

In actual fact, when the cruising tax was imposed several decades ago (and not raised a penny for 30 years), one of the prime reasons was to be in lieu of the hotel tax. As governments and politicians have come and gone, there have, indeed, been efforts to add the hotel taxes to boats. In every case, after efforts by the Charter Yacht Society of the BVI, sometimes aided by the Chamber of Commerce and Hotel Association, these attempts have been ended after further checking of the legislative history and the institutional memory of various officials, past and present. When AirBnB got started in the BVI, it got into some hot water as it was getting around the hotel tax all the other establishnents were paying. With their operations here threatened, they fell in line with the tax regulations.


You have fallen through a crack of your own making. So why don't you go to Customs and the CCHA and explain the double taxation you are being subjected to, and the history of the hotel/cruising taxes? I doubt that an exception will be made for one or a handful of people, but it might be worth a try. I doubt AirBnB will touch it.

[goboatingnow]

There is no absolute right to innocent passage through territorial waters. If you think there is you can of course invoke the dispute clause of UNCLOS and take the matter to the international court of justice ( a court the US of course as usual doesn’t recognise )

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by GoinSumWare

"Let us not forget that more borders are closed than open, just try to enter or leave the USA or Canada for example."

Are you joking? MILLIONS cross the southern US border illegally and any attempt by the US to close its border and assert its sovereignty is attacked and called "racist." Do you really want to compare that to a sailboat straying across a maritime border while tacking upwind during innocent passage through the Narrows?

Being from Montaña, it's the highly fortified northern border that is of most local concern and which due to Covid-19 is closed except for essential travel purposes. Fully 877 km (545 mi) along the Montaña section, clearly delineated the entire way because one is not allowed to install trees within 10 feet [or 3 meters for Canadians] of the international border. The long clearing makes for a great hunting as big game routinely uses the area for passage, but there is the issue of not being able to shoot across the border or to retrieve game that becomes downed on the opposite side of your border. Canada has this "thing" about large caliber bullets being sent their way. FYI, note to all Yanks, if you do inadvertently shot into Canada, one is expected to yell, "Excuse me!" Canadians will do so instinctively, therefore no need to provide such guidance as to proper etiquette and manners, Eh.

Lot's of essential travel occurs between Canada and Mexico and the USA every day, far more than undocumented travel. Ten's of thousands of trucks hauling trade both ways.

Do recognize that fully 2/3rds of undocumented persons in the USA arrived legally but have simply overstayed their visas. Far fewer persons cross the borders illegally and remain in the USA. Race has nothing to due with immigration, America being predominantly of immigrant heritage, except for the True Natives amongst which I have the privilege of living here on their Flathead Nation.

As to our busy Canadian border.

The Willow Creek border crossing that connects the communities of Havre, Montana and Govenlock, Saskatchewan. This crossing averages less than 15 vehicles per day. Pure gridlock during rush hours.
Originally, individuals who entered the US from the Willow Creek port were required to stop by Havre, Montana for a customs inspection after entry on the country road, which BTW is now paved.

The US port of entry is open daily to all vehicles from 9 am to 5 pm (Mountain / Montaña Tme). The Canadian port of entry, on the other hand, observes seasonal hours of operation. From the Second Sunday in March to the first Saturday of November, passenger vehicles can enter Canada from 9 am to 5 pm daily while commercial vehicles are limited between the hours of 9 am to 5 pm on weekdays (except holidays). For the remainder of the year, passenger vehicles can use the Canadian port from 10 am to 6 pm daily while commercial vehicles can only cross this port from 10 am to 5 pm on weekdays (except holidays).

As a comparatively lightly traveled port of entry, extended delays at this crossing are rare. Travelers who want to check the wait times at this location while on the road can get the CanBorder app or the CBP Border Wait Times app on Google Play or iTunes.

There is now a gate installed at the border crossing and which is closed during non-operational times; it used to be customary that they border patrol would place an orange traffic cone in the roadway to "close" the border entry when they departed for the evening, weekend or holiday. The gate being part of New Wall which Canada may or may not pay for. See image below.

And due expect to see the ever diligent RMCP and US CBP patrol when international back country hiking and crossing in the International Peace Park of US Glacier National Park and Waterton Lakes National Park in Canada combined in 1932 to become the Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park

You won't find any goats haunting Goat Haunt (it's named for the prominent nearby Goat Haunt Mountain –which goats likely do inhabit). However, you will find the start of the Continental Divide National Scenic Trail for backpackers heading southbound and the end for continental divide backpackers heading northbound.

When traveling to Goat Haunt and continuing on into Canada from the U.S. or vice versa (into the U.S. from Canada) you are still crossing an international border despite the Peace Park designation. This means you are required to check in with border customs. When traveling into the United States you must possess a U.S. Passport, Enhanced Driver's License, U.S. Passport Card, or NEXUS Card and check in with a customs agent at Goat Haunt between 11:15 am and 5:00 pm daily. When entering Canada from the U.S. you must call Canadian Customs at (403) 653-3535 for acceptance/rejection by Canadian authorities as soon as you arrive in Waterton Townsite.

Here are the words of wisdom from our Goat Haunt Backcountry Ranger Kelsey...

When crossing the international border and entering the United States at the remote backcountry Goat Haunt, all hikers must check in with US Customs staff before continuing their hike. In light of the increasing number of hikers who arrive before or after the hours of the Port of Entry, the locals suggest the following options for whiling away time at Goat Haunt:

Top 10 Things to Do While Waiting for the Customs Agents at Goat Haunt:

Eat all of your gorp before even starting your trip.
Think about how far down the trail you'd be if you had planned better.
Watch red squirrels run back and forth on the lawn caching pine cones. For hours.
See if you can hit that one floating log with rocks from the beach.
See how long it takes your hiking buddies to start hitting you with rocks from the beach because you didn't research the hours of the Port of Entry.
Stay the night! If you didn't make it down in time to catch the Customs agents, you may not continue hiking until they return the next day. The rangers will gladly put you up at the luxurious cement-slabbed Goat Haunt Shelters.
Guess how many mosquito bites you'll have before you finally start hiking.
Find out how long you can stand on you head.
Write the next great American novel. You're stranded in America, after all.
Read the parameters on your Goat Haunt Memo. Which you should have done before you got to Goat Haunt. Because then you wouldn't be stuck there!

As to the BVI's Exclusion Zone, perhaps they should place a string of buoys denoting the sea border, similar to the obelisks on the Canadian border. Or at least clear the seaweed for say 10 feet on each side so as to delineate the border for any wayward boaters or swimmers.

All the best from The Last Best Place.

[Jason Flare]

https://www.dictionary.com/e/wp-cont...ly-300x300.jpg

[contrail]

i will make one more comment for those who do not understand that we are talking about SHORT distances here! Sounds like many folks think we are talking "Blue Water". You can swim between St John and Tortola, in the area we are talking about. It's a prime drug and people smuggling zone, although most of the drugs and people are enroute to the USVI. I have been stopped here by the USCG and boarded and checked. The Covid restrictions here have been well publicized for months, on CF (thank you, Montanan), Noonsite, and the BVI Government Facebook page. Any competent cruiser will know that rules need to be checked and where to check them. I can't imagine any fair minded persons thinking of the Frances Drake Channel or the BVI part of the narrows as anything other than the most interior of waters, unless they also think the Hudson River, New York Harbor or the Chesapeake are international waters. The Greater SF Bay, including the South Bay and San Pablo Bay stretch around 60 miles. End to end the BVI and its waters are less than that. Except with only eight ventilators and maybe twice that number of beds in the Covid ward, so two charterboats worth. Oh, and a total of 73 total Covid cases and a single death, since this started, with over 20% of the population tested. Which means we certainly know how to keep Covid out. The USVI, by comparison, across that narrow border, has about 20 times the cases and deaths, with 3.5 times the population.



In an area that small, and with guns, drugs, and people smuggling in the mix, it is not unlikely that, if interdicted, you might be taken to a shore side base for inspection. It is not unreasonable for the authorities to anticipate an illegal entry, even though you haven't "not entered yet". Those who have been here.....care to guess how many people go to White Bay on JVD, from St. Thomas, or the Willie T, from St. John, without bothering to enter? It is not unreasonable for the authorities to be a bit heavy handed by not wanting to board a boat that might well be armed, or to turn away a boat that may well have drugs, and simply escort it to port to be dealt with there. Remember, this only happens to boats who are already in violation. Sort of like the police pulling over a car that has been weaving through traffic, and being on guard for the worst.



I would ask that those who do not understand all of this to take a step back and look at it with a different set of eyes. Perspective is a marvelous thing in the way it totally affects the way something is seen. To simply whine that "they did not know", or "why were they just not let go" is, indeed a very self centered and entitled point of view. Using the word "unconstitutional", with no knowledge of the other country's constitution is revealing, and not in a good way. Threatening to withold one's dollars in the future is certainly one's right and privilege, but it conveys absolutely no respect for others.



Cruisers, sad to say, have a worldwide reputation for being cheap and disrespectful of rules they don't like. I was one of them. Who hasn't confided in another cruiser as to where there is a faucet that is not locked, never mind the cost to the owner of the faucet, or which washing machine gives back its coins? Who hasn't had a friend that snuck into a marina berth at night and then left in the morning before the office opened on the theory that "no one is using it". True story: As a cruiser, I was once hired to manage what was, at the time, and maybe still is, the most profitable marina on the West Coast of North America. As they said to me, "we need someone who knows his way around all of our rules, and you are that person!" When those rules became my job to uphold, I learned the ugly side of cruising, very, very sad to say.



A final word on the $20,000 penalty imposed by the BVI...which will, by past experience, be "negotiated" down to something less. The BVI, and many other small countries without adequate resources for enforcement, often overcome that handicap by enforcing randomly and very severely. It works. About ten years ago, an unlicensed fisherman from the US (who had previously been observed playing it very fancy with the borders for fishing) was apprehended in the act of fishing and trying to flee. He was fined $50,000 and spent time in jail. End of problem, for many years. When captaining charters, I would tell that story to guests who wanted to fish, but had not obtained a license. Guess what, they changed their minds. Very effective, but you don't get in trouble unless you are in violation. It is not always better to "beg forgiveness" than to ask!

[goboatingnow]

Good post , remember the so called freedom lovers here are largely armchair cruisers who actually haven’t sailed much further then their mouse stretches

[Old fella]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

https://www.dictionary.com/e/wp-cont...ly-300x300.jpg

Maybe Jason, but these real winners are whining about other countries that are trying to protect themselves against this pandemic. Most of these cruisers seem to be from the country that made the biggest cock up in history of this thing. I don’t know where you stand, but I wouldn’t mind betting there is a lot of decent American folk out there who agree with me.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

*Im actually typing this at a local cafe, because F’ Starbucks, if you’re scared mask up and hide behind your toilet paper wall in your basement, but I’ll still enjoy my life even if it means a scary sub 1% chance of death

This is why we can't have nice things.

[endlesspursuit]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Another instance: https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/...virgin-islands

If they are so worried about covid 19 why do they keep grabbing people far out at sea and bringing them to land. O, I know its all about the money. That's why they want cash only. Easier to split up.

[endlesspursuit]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

You weren't out on Chesapeake Bay when the State of Maryland shut it down earlier in the year.

You haven't triggered some threshold coming into Ft Lauderdale from offshore and stopped for an inspection.

Coming into Newport last Spring we were stopped and while permitted to proceed were escorted to the dock to which we said we were going.

You haven't jumped through hoops as a US citizen to get into the USVI direct from mainland US.

This isn't about politics. It is about governments of countries doing the best they can to protect their citizens and economies.

Its a BVI money grab. Here in Florida we run far offshore to fish and come back, no problems. Too bad your in the democrat run state of Maryland.

[endlesspursuit]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I think they are accomplishing exactly what they intended. The cruising community is spreading the word for them among those who can't/couldn't be bothered to do their research. This greatly reduces the burden on their limited resources to patrol.

This is also entirely consistent with their approach on other matters such as fishing without a license. Big fines are a deterrent.



When entering a country you are supposed to proceed directly and without stopping to the nearest port of entry. Anchoring enroute is stopping and no different from landing on a beach. It is illegal. Try that coming into the US.

Well I don't know when or if you have ever been to the Bahamas but when we come in from the north sometimes you can't make it to a port of entry before dark. So the custom is to anchor and not go ashore anywhere . Next morning head to port of entry. Quite common method as you never navigate Bahamian waters at night.

[goboatingnow]

I agree , I almost never enter an unfamiliar port at night especially anything small or awkward or in bad weather

I’ve usually found a call on the vhf or often these days a mobile phone call results in no issue in anchoring in a bay etc.

[endlesspursuit]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Sounds like the USA
Or are you going to try and tell me they never board boats who cross illegally into their territory.
Im sure I have read that they board boats who are just out minding their own business as part of safety and registration checks.

Yea but we don't grab the crew and demand ransom money. Maybe we should start.