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23-12-2010, 07:49
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#46
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sant Carles, S Spain
Boat: 30ft Catalac 900 "Rubessa"
Posts: 876
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I refer the right honerable gentelman to the answer I gave a few pages ago....
__________________
Previous owner of a 1994 Catalac 900, now sadly SOLD
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23-12-2010, 08:05
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#47
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ontario canada
Boat: grampian 26
Posts: 1,743
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We could go back to making our own cheap crap and eliminate the need to ship foreign cheap crap huge distances and save all that fuel for cruising.
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23-12-2010, 08:06
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#48
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Between Caribbean and Canada
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 8,629
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GOBOATINGNOW,
I think you are completely missing my point. Eurpoe has $10 gas, a lot of that is tax that is being poured back into the economy. So, lets say the real price of gas is $2.50. In the US we are paying about $3. Canada about $4. Europe about $10. But in each case $2.50 is LEAVING the economy.
Now if you raise the cost of gas to $5.00 the US will pay $5.50, Canada $6.50, and Europe $12.50. But..........$5.00 is LEAVING the economy.
Proportionality the US and Canada will be hit harder, but in all cases it will hurt the local economy.
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23-12-2010, 08:52
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#49
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Armchair Bucketeer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer
Now if you raise the cost of gas to $5.00 the US will pay $5.50, Canada $6.50, and Europe $12.50. But..........$5.00 is LEAVING the economy.
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That doesn't matter as long as we are using the oil to create wealth.
Ooops
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23-12-2010, 11:25
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#50
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Philippines in the winters
Boat: It’s in French Polynesia now
Posts: 11,369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
That doesn't matter as long as we are using the oil to create wealth.
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I would agree with that.
In the USA we use to use fuel for the production of steel and plastic products. Most of that has now gone over seas due to the labor costs (Exec's and banks are filling their pockets). And the fuel now is mostly being burned in transportation and electrical generation.
Most USAians have gotten fat and don't want to give up the convenances of gas powered vehicles/toys, especially up North here. We really need to build mass transit systems in our cities to eliminate the minor vehicle use in high populated areas.
The bigger they build these ships the more proficient they are, until they can't get them in port anymore. So, sailing merchants will only be good in small ports fairly local but that's what tugs w/barges are doing now, especially here in the PNW/Western Canada.
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
The measure of a man is how he navigates to a proper shore in the midst of a storm!
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23-12-2010, 12:22
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#51
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: On Board, just above the water
Boat: Camano Troll 31'
Posts: 1,201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer
GOBOATINGNOW,
I think you are completely missing my point. Eurpoe has $10 gas, a lot of that is tax that is being poured back into the economy. So, lets say the real price of gas is $2.50. In the US we are paying about $3. Canada about $4. Europe about $10. But in each case $2.50 is LEAVING the economy.
Now if you raise the cost of gas to $5.00 the US will pay $5.50, Canada $6.50, and Europe $12.50. But..........$5.00 is LEAVING the economy.
.
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What do you mean "LEAVING the economy? Are the people that pump the oil, transport the oil, refine the oil all putting this money under some mattress? Taxes are the only way money LEAVES the economy. The Gov takes money from the people that earn it and give it to people that don't produce. The people that earn the money use what they need and invest the rest. Investment is what fuels the economy, not giving handouts to people that don't produce. And a good economy is like teaching someone to fish, The Gov hands out fish.
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23-12-2010, 12:25
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#52
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Boat: Research vessel for a university, retired now.
Posts: 10,406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
Chinese seem keen on Trains for the future. they might be wind powered
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OMG...that's hilarious David. You had me rolling.
__________________
David
Life begins where land ends.
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23-12-2010, 13:04
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#53
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 55
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Bunker fuel is about $500 per ton
Cheap fuel is, to put it mildly, cheap. It works out to about $1.40 or less a gallon (but nobody buys it in gallons...). Crude at $90bbl works out to slightly more, $1.60/gallon, but they have to get rid of the refuse after the distilates are separated and sold. 4%-5% profit for the majors, then refinery and transport costs are added on. Everything after that is taxes at one level or another.
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23-12-2010, 15:38
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sant Carles, S Spain
Boat: 30ft Catalac 900 "Rubessa"
Posts: 876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey
The bigger they build these ships the more proficient they are, until they can't get them in port anymore.
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I believe the only thing limiting the size of container vessels is the actual size of the locks at the Panama Canal. There are plans to rebuild them bigger (I think work has already started) so that a new breed of even bigger and more efficient 'super freighters' can be built.
__________________
Previous owner of a 1994 Catalac 900, now sadly SOLD
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23-12-2010, 15:45
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#55
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Philippines in the winters
Boat: It’s in French Polynesia now
Posts: 11,369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simonmd
I believe the only thing limiting the size of container vessels is the actual size of the locks at the Panama Canal. There are plans to rebuild them bigger (I think work has already started) so that a new breed of even bigger and more efficient 'super freighters' can be built.
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Yes they are! There was an hour long TV doc a short while back.
Link: Panama Canal Expansion - Diagram of Panama Canal Locks - Popular Mechanics
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
The measure of a man is how he navigates to a proper shore in the midst of a storm!
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23-12-2010, 16:03
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#56
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Between Caribbean and Canada
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 8,629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don1500
What do you mean "LEAVING the economy? Are the people that pump the oil, transport the oil, refine the oil all putting this money under some mattress? Taxes are the only way money LEAVES the economy. The Gov takes money from the people that earn it and give it to people that don't produce. The people that earn the money use what they need and invest the rest. Investment is what fuels the economy, not giving handouts to people that don't produce. And a good economy is like teaching someone to fish, The Gov hands out fish.
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Leaving the economy as in being shipped to whomever we are buying the stuff from: Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia.
If they charge us $2.50 a gallon we pay them $2.50 a gallon.
If they charge us $5.00 a gallon we pay them $5.00 a gallon.
That is money leaving OUR (US, EU, China, etc.) economy.
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24-12-2010, 02:58
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#57
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer
Leaving the economy as in being shipped to whomever we are buying the stuff from: Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia.
If they charge us $2.50 a gallon we pay them $2.50 a gallon.
If they charge us $5.00 a gallon we pay them $5.00 a gallon.
That is money leaving OUR (US, EU, China, etc.) economy.
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That's a very narrow minded perspective yes overall trade imbalances build up but it's only a system of barter it all goes around in a circle the Saudis are huge investors in the western economy. Hence the money comes back.
Secondly let's not get into the good versus bad tax debates. Taxes pay for schools , hospitals, firemen, police, etc and also provide a safety net under the least privileged in our society. I don't want to live in a " hand to hand combat " type of society
Getting back to the topic, the lack of hydrocarbon will drive us back to the stone age stuff is really nonsensical, I remember bring told that stuff in the 80,s that it was going to be all over by the end of the century hmmm looking around me now.....
The world has vast reserves of oil both polar regions as yet to be comprehensively explored but surveys suggest big reserves in the Arctic. Equally electrical storage technology proceeds apace and surely as " eggs are eggs" we will reach a tipping point and all transport will go electric. ( I'm looking forward to big electric vehicles as it will be possible to get 0-60 on 4 seconds electric sports cars -fabulous.
The fact is humans don't " progress" backwards we don't " scale back " we're the best solutions orientated animals ever invented. That's what we do, solve and innovate.
I have no time for this new age wooly jumper nonsense that the futures somehow less industrialised less global less consumer orientated , oil is the least of our worries.
Dave
Dave
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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24-12-2010, 05:41
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#58
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Between Caribbean and Canada
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 8,629
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Wow Dave, I like your attitude.
If you are gonna drive over a cliff anyway you might as well be happy about it.
"Look, I'm flying!"
Sorry for the sarcasm, I try to curb it, but sometimes........
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24-12-2010, 05:51
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#59
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,672
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[QUOTE=hpeer;584528]Wow Dave, I like your attitude.
If you are gonna drive over a cliff anyway you might as well be happy about it.
"Look, I'm flying!"
QUOTE]
So far... so good....
so far... so good...
So far.. so good...
__________________
You can't beat a people up (for 75yrs+) and have them say..
"I Love You.. ". Murray Roman.
Human Rights only matter when it's politically expedient..
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24-12-2010, 06:27
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#60
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: On Board, just above the water
Boat: Camano Troll 31'
Posts: 1,201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
Getting back to the topic, the lack of hydrocarbon will drive us back to the stone age stuff is really nonsensical, I remember bring told that stuff in the 80,s that it was going to be all over by the end of the century hmmm looking around me now.....
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I remember in sociology 101 (1974) being told by a professor that by the year 1984 (OH that terrible year!) we will run out or farm-able land and people will be falling dead in the streets due to starvation. This will be caused in part by population groth, The "stupid way humans want their houses to be on farm land", and the coming of the next Ice Age. (He later changed that to Global Warming, then to "Climate Change").
0 for 4, good record! (And doesn't the climate ALWAYS change?)
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