Merged Threads: HMS Bounty

[sailorboy1]

but don't you people feel it is time to give it a rest?

[sailronin]

I think we can stop trying to rationalize the Captain's decision to take Bounty to sea...it was wrong, the proof being loss of his ship and loss of life. Any argument made in defense of his action is flawed by the simple fact that the ship was lost.
The issue that will come up at the Inquest is what lead to the decision? Was there pressure from management (owner) to keep a schedule? Hubris on the part of the Captain (as shown in old video interview)? Ignorance of the weather maps and predictions?

Having been through the "edges" of two hurricanes in vessels greater than 1000 tons and on shore for three others, I firmly believe that anyone who thinks that Sandy was not a hurricane or that the effects of Sandy were mitigated by being close to Cape Hatteras (Graveyard of the Atlantic) in the "safe quadrant" is being very unrealistic.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mrohr

I have been asked by lands people: What do you do in hurricanes? I reply: " One does not
survive hurricanes ".Maybe not wholly accurate,but a damn good rule of thumb.

It's actually not accurate at all. Most sailboats caught out to sea in hurricanes survive (and it happens every year), and sailboats sunk and crew killed by hurricanes (tropical rotating storms) is a fairly rare event, at least out at sea.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailronin

I think we can stop trying to rationalize the Captain's decision to take Bounty to sea...it was wrong, the proof being loss of his ship and loss of life. Any argument made in defense of his action is flawed by the simple fact that the ship was lost.
The issue that will come up at the Inquest is what lead to the decision? Was there pressure from management (owner) to keep a schedule? Hubris on the part of the Captain (as shown in old video interview)? Ignorance of the weather maps and predictions?

Having been through the "edges" of two hurricanes in vessels greater than 1000 tons and on shore for three others, I firmly believe that anyone who thinks that Sandy was not a hurricane or that the effects of Sandy were mitigated by being close to Cape Hatteras (Graveyard of the Atlantic) in the "safe quadrant" is being very unrealistic.

I don't think anyone is trying to "rationalize the Captain's decision to take Bounty to sea". Some people have tried to slow down the rush to judgement, based on the little information we have.

Of course Sandy was a hurricane, and the Captain appears rather foolish in the video someone posted above, which I admit is somewhat damning. I doubt if anyone would say that it was a good decision to go to sea in that storm. I would not. I have gone to sea in similar and even worse wind conditions, but never near the Gulf Stream, with a gale-force wind blowing against the Stream, and I'm pretty sure I would not have done it, myself, but that does not prove anything. We know what the wind conditions were -- they were not really dangerous by themselves. What the sea state was, we don't know. We know that the seas were "really big" (the rescue swimmer said that), but "really big" is not the same as "really dangerous".

Whether or not the passage plan was stupid or not we really just don't know -- not enough information. The fact that the vessel went down does not prove that the passage plan was stupid -- what if the vessel went down because a prop shaft dropped out? Unrelated to the weather? We just don't know that yet, and the Captain cannot defend himself on here.

Of course armchair speculation is what Internet forums is all about. But a little respect for the dead wouldn't hurt anything around here.

[river rose]

To me, this was a stupid loss. They had at least a weeks notice of the storm. STUPID STUPID

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

but don't you people feel it is time to give it a rest?

There are times when that come be said to every member at one time or another.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger

ZEE...this is what YOU said on 10/29, just a couple of days ago. (post #120. LOOK IT UP as you keep telling people):

"BOUNTY WAS IN A HURRICANE. some folks do not seem to understand this fact."

Really hard to take your posts seriously when you flipflop...

He's right Zee, here's what you just said:

i LOOKED UP THE PATH on bounty's site and found awesome incredible wonderment-- they were not in or near the hurricane nor were they in danger of being so. west side and out of it. been in gom in hurricane. was on west side of it--not a bad place to be. but we were inside cone --they were not.

But earlier you made the following statements ...

sandy was a cat 1 hurricane when bounty went down in her. that is way more than merely 40 mph winds. whoever said was only 40 mph winds was either wrong or deluded.

BOUNTY WAS IN A HURRICANE. some folks do not seem to understand this fact.

the track i saw was 4-5 days ago---both headed to meting dead center of storm--i knew we would hear from them, but .....i was hoping not sunk...

the track of bounty was headed directly into damsandy's heart....storm was so huge he couldnt have found other side--1600 mile diameter is hugeous.

i knew when i saw their path headed right into the heart of sandy that there would be a follow up such as this--i

You were following the Bounty before the storm and were so sure she was headed into it with no way out, but now you are so sure she was not in it?

[Mark Johnson]

One note about the HMS Bounty, unrelated to the Captain's decision, for which he has paid the ultimate price already...

When I toured the vessel 5 years ago, (while she was moored in Morehead City, NC), I was told that she was actually a steel ship, with a timber facade, solely for the benefit of realism in movies. So seams didn't "open up". She likely took on water from gun ports, and from above deck hatches.

The winds were hurricane force, gusting to 90 knots, and seas chaotic & around 30'. This area, off of NC, is called "the Graveyard of the Atlantic", for good reason. There are, in all probability, more shipwrecks concentrated here, than any place in the world. THOUSANDS! During a blow, the seas can get VERY bad here... (Deep water, meeting shallow water, near a cape, in proximity to the Gulf Stream, in a strong opposing wind, create waves that are total chaos)!

The Captain's error in judgement "for being there", speaks for itself, but... had the engine not failed, (leaving the vessel broadside to huge breaking waves), she probably could have weathered it anyway.

"Sailing" through it, with a large crew, MIGHT have been realistic as well, but this was a very small crew, for this size vessel, in these conditions.

THIS WAS NOT A "CLIPPER SHIP". They were later, "historically", and a square rig is their only similarity... The famous Clipper ships, regularly rounded Cape Horn in truly terrible seas, but they had MUCH more seaworthy vessels, with HUGE, lifetime experienced crews, with unbelievable courage, stamina, and "super human strength". (See the video of Irving Johnson, rounding the horn on the vessel, "Peking".) I know of NO such crews in existence today... Watch the video, it will blow your mind!

Ships of the Bounty's Genre, and before, got caught in terrible storms regularly, as they had no way to know. These were not yachts, or pleasure craft. They didn't have the luxury of avoiding the Hurricane belt, or Hurricane season, and when they did get caught, they sank with regularity. The NC outer banks had an official rescue industry as a result!

With the benefit of hindsight, we can second guess the original decisions all we want, but once in the predicament that the vessel was in, her sinking was quite predictable. The crew fought a good fight, and did the best they could...

It was fortunate indeed, that all but two of the crew were rescued, under the circumstances. IMO, the heros of this survival story is the Coast Guard pilot, crew, & rescue swimmer, that pulled it off. My hat's off to you guys...

There is a big difference between the bravery that we muster up, when caught with our pants down, and we'll die if we don't... VS the courage it takes to actually "volunteer" for such a rescue mission.

M.

[MysticGringo]

This is certainly a tragic loss, and one which I feel horribly for the families.

Having maybe 1% of the experience of the captain if the Bounty, I am surely out of place to judge him or his actions. I do however strive to learn from what turned out to be a horrible mistake.

In these situations I try to figure out how it should have been dealt with... obviously not leaving is the simple and perhaps correct answer, but once there, how do you deal with it. Perhaps if they didn't sink we would be discussing how (apart from leaving port) brilliantly the captain routed his ship.

I have not read everything, but from what I understand, he was between the two systems, on the weak side of Sandy, and was possibly setup for a smooth and perfect ride south. So that I may learn, and possibly others, does that make sense?

I'm not questioning his decision to leave port... I can't understand that. I'm want to understand his decision making, piloting, and routing process following. Perhaps there's more to learn from this than don't leave port in that weather...?

[sabray]

Mark,
I was on the bounty this summer. She was built of wood in Nova Scotia. Traditional planked with some modifications. I think one of her masts was steel. 2 John Deere diesels and modern electronics etc.... Anyway not a steel boat.

[sailronin]

My understanding is that the "Bounty" made for the Mel Gibson movie was steel with wood above the waterline but this "Bounty" for the 1962 Marlon Brando movie was in fact a wooden vessel.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

One note about the HMS Bounty, unrelated to the Captain's decision, for which he has paid the ultimate price already...

When I toured the vessel 5 years ago, (while she was moored in Morehead City, NC), I was told that she was actually a steel ship, with a timber facade, solely for the benefit of realism in movies. So seams didn't "open up". She likely took on water from gun ports, and from above deck hatches..

This is false. Bounty's structure was wood (oak, fir, spruce, locust), not steel, rather like the original. Here is a photo of the original build:



Unlike the original, she had external lead ballast.

Our shipwrights spent more than a year rebuilding this famous ship from the waterline up. During this period the working crew grew from 18 to 49. This 412 ton vessel would not be with us today had it not been for Marlon Brando's sit-down strike. When he learned it was to be burned in the final reel of Mutiny on the Bounty, he refused to act in another scene until MGM created a scaled down version of Bounty for the burn scene.

The Bounty’s current protector is Bob Hansen. When he first brought her to us in 2001, Bounty had been leaking upwards to 30,000 gallons of water an hour at her pier. Our job was to rework the hull from the waterline down. During this recent visit to the shipyard, the scope of work included:
Fastenings- 7,000 trunnels (locust)
Keel- 54,000 lbs lead
Planking- 35,000 board ft of oak and Douglas fir
Deck- 3,500 board ft Douglas fir
Framing;- 30,000 board ft of oak

Shipyard Log: August 2007

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

The winds were hurricane force, gusting to 90 knots, and seas chaotic & around 30'.

Not where the Bounty was. What the Bounty is reported to have encountered was 40 knots, gusting to 50, at the peak. These reports are supported by the Hatteras weather station archives.

[Captain Jeffry]

Originally Posted by sailronin

My understanding is that the "Bounty" made for the Mel Gibson movie was steel with wood above the waterline but this "Bounty" for the 1962 Marlon Brando movie was in fact a wooden vessel.

Boy howdy, am I ever confused... but then again, I confuse easily..

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by sabray

Mark,
I was on the bounty this summer. She was built of wood in Nova Scotia. Traditional planked with some modifications. I think one of her masts was steel. 2 John Deere diesels and modern electronics etc.... Anyway not a steel boat.

I had asked a crew member, possibly the Capt., but perhaps his answer was wrong? (Or half true?) It was, after all, a "movie set" composite, made of many modern materials, and not a "true copy" replica.

I was curious of the construction because of my 40 years as a boatbuilder... IE... I saw plywood used extensively down below, Not just old technology, and she had full standing head room below, rather than the "actual" head room that they had back then, of around 5'.

Its a moot point about the hull material, however. My point was that she likely took on the majority of the water through gun ports, hatches, and above deck openings, as breaking waves washed the decks, from abeam.

MATERIALS...
In some cases, like the totally restored (NOT replica), Antarctic exploration ship "Discovery", now moored in Scotland, (I Toured her two years ago), a wooden hull was the strongest material available, even after the advent of the steel hull. This vessel had a double wooden hull, with an app 8" layer of salt between the hulls. It allowed the outer hull to compress when frozen solid in the ice, and the salt pickled the wood as well.

Point? Assuming you're right (or partly so), about the hull material... IMO, Even a traditionally planked wooden hull, (that was built and maintained right), would not have foundered and quickly sank, from the nuisance water that comes in through seams. It takes longer than that.

M.

[Mark Johnson]

I think that there may be some "miss reporting" going on in the national news.
We're talking about two different Bountys!

The Bounty that I toured in Morehead City, WAS the one that was used in the Mel Gibson movie, "Muitny on the Bounty" and later... Johny Depp's "Pirates of the Carribbean" as well. It was this predominantly steel hulled vessel I refer to, as news reports (on our local Eastern NC news), describe THIS Bounty, as being the one that was moored in Morehead City, 5 years ago, AND the one that just sank in Hurricane Sandy.

At the same time the NATIONAL news makes no reference to this being the Mel Gibson/Anthony Hopkins, "HMS Bounty". (A friend of mine was an extra in the movie, btw...) The national news refers only to the older Marlon Brando, HMS Bounty.

SO... Either the National news is referring to this vessel incorrectly, Or our local news has assumed incorrectly, that this was the same HMS Bounty that we had moored here?

The truth seems muddled here.


BTW... I live here. Although just a high cat 1, Sandy had a width of 1,000 miles, and the subsequent seas were very chaotic. Due to eventual landfall in NJ, being on a full moon / high tide, underwater topography, and combining with another storm, the seas and surge generated were disproportionate to the wind speed.
M.