Homeless Anchor out

[a64pilot]

Yeah, the keys is the poster child of why there has to unfortunately be anchoring restrictions.
There are so many just junk abandoned boats in Fl that many places you can’t anchor for a few days and eat out and re-provision and move on.

The junk abandoned boats have taken up the whole anchorage.
Then don’t get me started on “private” moorings in places like Lake Worth

[Poche]

"Bottom line is as Attenborough said "I can't think of any problem that would not be easier to solve with fewer people""

I find the over reach when cities try to deal with a massive amounts of people and too many of these masses think they can do whatever they want. I understand that.
On the west coast everything is over run unless you cruise off season like now through May or so, which I do. So, that's my solution..cruise, anchor in the winter and work on the boat in the summer.

[Doek]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Your right the water belongs to the Feds, but it’s tough to anchor without touching the underlying ground, that the State controls.
I see a correlation to airspace, maybe. I can fly over most anyone’s house, but I can’t land in their backyard, or actually fly within 500’ of them unless I’m in an Ag plane or a helicopter.
I assume you can motor by someone’s house, but you can’t anchor, maybe.
It gets sillier too. Every notice that the Manatee zones in Fl are always within 300 ft of the nice houses? The entire downtown area of Jacksonville is a Manatee area cause we all know that Manatees live in the cities where the banks are concrete walls, right?

I’m going to guess that a no wake zone is harder to get passed or maybe speeding in a Manatee zone brings in more money.
Then add to that the fact the the local LEO could not care less, his boss said go arrest those folks, so he does.
Then if you can afford it, you can hire a Johnny Cochran type of Lawyer to fight it. Of course homeless people living in derelict boats don’t have Lawyer money.
Honestly every now and again there is a test case, seems to often come from Fl, when some home owner moors a dozen cheap little sailboats in front of their house to keep boaters away or something equally as silly.

Most often who leads those battles is an organization of boaters, and one has to assume they cherry pick a case they believe they can win.

But don’t think for a minute when the local Sheriff or Fl FWC shows up that your going to educate them on your rights, cause your not, and if you decide that your going to anyway, better have that Johnny Cochran type of Lawyer on retainer and speed dial, cause your going to need them.

OK. The ground under the Navigable waterways of the Ocean, Great Lakes, Smaller Navigable Lakes, Rivers, etc etc etc is solely under the control of the Federal Government. That is why municipalities need to get a permit to install mooring balls and the Feds then accurately delineate the setup of the field. The municipalities have no say in the matter at all. Several years ago Georgetown SC installed a mooring field in the waters right next to the Town. The Feds showed up, and made them remove every one as they had no jurisdiction or permit. They are still all sitting on the ground.
I asked my Fed contact why they allow all the illegal laws regarding the Navigable Waterways to exist? He said "We aren't to go through every Municipality in the country to sift through all their laws looking for illegal laws regarding navigation. If it gets before a judge, we will help to remove that particular law." Welcome to America.
I also asked why the feds allow all the environmental police, sheriff's, state police etc. To cruise the waterways and harass boaters. He said that since 911 and homeland security they are very overworked and so allow non-Federal police to help out with policing the waterways even though their jurisdiction is suspect at best. For a Sheriff to stop a Federally Documented 45' sailing vessel traveling a navigable waterway is the same as stopping a containership traveling the same waterway. They technically haven't the jurisdiction. Federal laws don't differentiate as to size of vessel in these cases.
Last note:
The municipalities that try to write Navigable Waterway laws usually do a terrible, unreasonable, and absurd job when they try to do it. They clearly haven't a clue about Navigation or the laws governing it. My fed contact said "That is one of the main reasons that the Federal Government doesn't release jurisdiction to States or Municipalities. They have no experience and no skill writing these laws and when they try, they just make a mess of it."

[mvweebles]

This is become way to complicated. The anchor-out issue is divided in two ways. Places that want transient boaters but worry about long term derelict anhor outs. And places where well-heeled residents don't want to share the view. The former is easily solved with time-bound anchor restrictions such those proposed in this thread. The latter falls into category of "Rich Folk Problems.". Why so cynical? Because they always talk about safety and storms Hazard to navigation and discharge and seaworthiness. The simple solution is what is done with motor vehicles : require adequate liability insurance from a reputable underwriter, every one of which requires a periodic survey. But that wouldn't solve the real underlying issue for these latter folks because they want the boats gone. Nada. Zip.

[Poche]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

The simple solution is what is done with motor vehicles : require adequate liability insurance from a reputable underwriter, every one of which requires a periodic survey.

So, who would enforce that? The coast guard for documented vessels and the DMV for state registered boats?

[mvweebles]

Most, if not all of the contentious areas such as Richardson Bay and ICW have marine contingent of local law enforcement. Sheriff or police. Ask for proof. If non provided, issue a citation. If ignored, impound vessel. Rinse/repeat a few times to make an example and problem will be solved.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by quackedo

OK. The ground under the Navigable waterways of the Ocean, Great Lakes, Smaller Navigable Lakes, Rivers, etc etc etc is solely under the control of the Federal Government. That is why municipalities need to get a permit to install mooring balls and the Feds then accurately delineate the setup of the field. The municipalities have no say in the matter at all. Several years ago Georgetown SC installed a mooring field in the waters right next to the Town. The Feds showed up, and made them remove every one as they had no jurisdiction or permit. They are still all sitting on the ground.
I asked my Fed contact why they allow all the illegal laws regarding the Navigable Waterways to exist? He said "We aren't to go through every Municipality in the country to sift through all their laws looking for illegal laws regarding navigation. If it gets before a judge, we will help to remove that particular law." Welcome to America.
I also asked why the feds allow all the environmental police, sheriff's, state police etc. To cruise the waterways and harass boaters. He said that since 911 and homeland security they are very overworked and so allow non-Federal police to help out with policing the waterways even though their jurisdiction is suspect at best. For a Sheriff to stop a Federally Documented 45' sailing vessel traveling a navigable waterway is the same as stopping a containership traveling the same waterway. They technically haven't the jurisdiction. Federal laws don't differentiate as to size of vessel in these cases.
Last note:
The municipalities that try to write Navigable Waterway laws usually do a terrible, unreasonable, and absurd job when they try to do it. They clearly haven't a clue about Navigation or the laws governing it. My fed contact said "That is one of the main reasons that the Federal Government doesn't release jurisdiction to States or Municipalities. They have no experience and no skill writing these laws and when they try, they just make a mess of it."

WOW...I don't even know where to begin with this tripe.

What part of the federal law U.S.C Title 43 §1311. Rights of States
(a) Confirmation and establishment of title and ownership of lands and resources; management, administration, leasing, development, and use" do you not understand. States don't administer the navigable water, but management of the land beneath the water from the high tide line up to 3 miles out has clearly been confirmed upon the states by this LAW. Sorry, you don't like it, but your disagreement with this law does not simply negate the law.

As already stated in my previous posts...state jurisdicition has been adjudicated multiple times and upheld by the 9th circuit court of appeals. (See prior posts in thread).

Additionally your advice on marine police, or other state or locale law enforcement officials unable to board a "documented" vessel is completely incorrect and simply more nonsense. You are correct they cannot simply board a vessel without cause; however, they can order you to stop, or proceed to a specific location. If you refuse you can be arrested for failure to refuse a directive. In some states they can board you to ensure state and federal laws are being complied with. In some states they need "probable cause." (ex. Florida law, and https://www.boat-ed.com/washington/h...0/Enforcement/

WRT Georgetown, SC...I suspect you are referring to Sampit River area where in fact there is a mooring field. Here is the law for Georgetown, SC. https://library.municode.com/sc/geor..._S20-144UTMOBU

As an aside, your "federal friend" appears to be another example of the incompetence found so regularly in the federal bureaucrats providing not only incorrect, but actually false and misleading information.

Now sir...i have provided links to actual laws and court cases involving this matter.

If you'd care offer a rebuttal (which I am sure you will), please provide links & references to legal proceedings and/or actual laws that clearly support your case so we can read supporting evidence rather than rely on mere hearsay.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Here is the secret, keep your boat clean, don't have a mess on deck, Don't throw your trash over the side, don't dump your toilet in the water, don't play loud music late at night.

I live on my boat, I have never been kicked out because I don't do these things.

In fact I have had it happen where the cops have rolled in and rousted every boat but me. Why? Because the other boats were 'hobo' boats with piles of trash on deck, looking shabby as hell and an obvious eye sore.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

Here is the secret, keep your boat clean, don't have a mess on deck, Don't throw your trash over the side, don't dump your toilet in the water, don't play loud music late at night.

I live on my boat, I have never been kicked out because I don't do these things.

In fact I have had it happen where the cops have rolled in and rousted every boat but me. Why? Because the other boats were 'hobo' boats with piles of trash on deck, looking shabby as hell and an obvious eye sore.

I have had similar experiences. In a mooring field where boats all around me had FWC/USCG "inspections" while I was never bothered. It was always the good boats that were ignored by LEOs while they paid attention to the bad boats.

While this may not be right or make everyone happy it is reality.

[Poche]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

Here is the secret, keep your boat clean, don't have a mess on deck, Don't throw your trash over the side, don't dump your toilet in the water, don't play loud music late at night.

I live on my boat, I have never been kicked out because I don't do these things.

In fact I have had it happen where the cops have rolled in and rousted every boat but me. Why? Because the other boats were 'hobo' boats with piles of trash on deck, looking shabby as hell and an obvious eye sore.

I think I get it. Municipalities don't want to deal with abandoned derelict boats and nuisances.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by tomfl

I have had similar experiences. In a mooring field where boats all around me had FWC/USCG "inspections" while I was never bothered. It was always the good boats that were ignored by LEOs while they paid attention to the bad boats.

While this may not be right or make everyone happy it is reality.

And also I think a lot of it is if your boat looks like it is ready to sail away at a moments notice, that is going to get a way different response than if she looks like a garbage barge!

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by Poche

I think I get it. Municipalities don't want to deal with abandoned derelict boats and nuisances.

That is exactly it, the reason there are so many issues is you do have the 'floating homeless' who call themselves sailors, but never sail, they sit at anchor, create messes, create eye sores, and often are involved with drugs/alcohol, and are also frequently thieves.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by tomfl

I have had similar experiences. In a mooring field where boats all around me had FWC/USCG "inspections" while I was never bothered. It was always the good boats that were ignored by LEOs while they paid attention to the bad boats.

While this may not be right or make everyone happy it is reality.

People say make the laws so they address the underlying condition...that sounds good until they find a loophole or excuse. If you keep the law simple and apply it where there is a problem, it's much simpler.

Example: They don't pull over every speeding car.If you are doing 50mph in a 45mph zone, very unlikely that you will be pulled over but if you are doing 90mph, you likely will get hammered every time if a cop sees you do it.

Why? Common sense. You address the worst cases and you don't bother with marginal cases. Those out actually cruising fall into the marginal cases. The boats look in decent repair, they are typically only there for a few days and they don't cause problems...so they get left alone for the most part.

[Woodland Hills]

We traveled from St Augustine to Daytona a couple of days ago and the number of derelict or abandoned sailboats was astounding! I stopped counting at two dozen and was not including those that were actually semi-submerged or fully aground and partially on shore. Nearly all were under 35’ and all but one were sailboats. Can anyone explain why so many in the sail community as opposed to the powerboat community end up anchoring and just stripping their boats and walking away? The boats I saw had masts and standing rigging, but no winches, no running rigging, no sails and often wide open companionways. Even if the looting took place after the abandonment it still begs the question of why the owners felt they could walk away in the first place.

What is wrong with these people?

BTW many of these boats had no state registration numbers of any sort.

[sailorboy1]

You know this really isn’t much of a problem for cruisers. I don’t know how many days the last 3 years I’ve spent on the ICW and in Florida on anchor. But I’ve NEVER have any LEO come by and check me or anything. In fact last month was the first time even the Coast Gaurd has checked me and I’ve spent lots of time right across from different CG stations.

Cruising boats in my experience don’t have issues. Trashy boats being lived in do. And delict boats are a problem. It’s the boat rash and delict boats than are a problem and missing up the water use for the rest of us.