Homeless Anchor out

[capeharj]

If it's designated navigable water way, it's administered by the Army Corp of Engineers and patrolled by the Coast Guard. Local governments have little or no jurisdiction. What they know is no single boater can do anything about their actions. In Florida an association took the state to court and they then negotiated rules acceptable to most. Answere join or form an association that has the political and financial might to take on the politicians.

[Happ]

For you arm chair lawyers who don’t know what you are talking about let me set the record straight. I live in a coastal town. We have an actual inlet to the Atlantic Ocean. We allowed open anchoring for decades. Two hurricanes in 2 years we had to pay to pull the dozens of boats off the land to the cost of $100’s of thousands of dollars. In almost every case these were boats that people would create their own mooring by dropping refrigerators, engine blocks, etc in the water. They would tie their boats up to them and leave. Often for years. Case in point. The city tracked down one owner through outdated registration. When contacted he said he had given the boat to his brother. When they contacted the brother he said yeah but he never got a title so he’s not responsible! Another boat was in a slip. It’s condition was so suspect they could not get insurance until all items on a surveyors checklist were complete. A hurricane was heading right for us and all slips were evacuated. The boat was towed out of the slip and an anchor was put out. The boat sunk during the hurricane. When the owner was contacted the city found out he didn’t have legal ownership to the boat. The title hadn’t been past to the people living aboard. The city was lucky. The local towing company claimed salvage rights so they are responsible for the disposal of the boat.

My city’s answer according to law created a 10 day per month anchoring policy. With one requirement. The boat must have someone on it every 24hrs. The result is our natural harbor has been swept of all the moorings that were illegally laid. Our harbor is now filled with boats moving north and south. Anchor lights are now seen every night on every boat.

Yes as a city we are still tasked with the garbage from the transiting boats. We believe the cost is more than offset by those transients in what they contribute to our town’s economy when they eat at our restaurants or shop at our stores.

So the answer is it is not without cost to cities. There is an old saying, “You get what you pay for.”

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Happ

For you arm chair lawyers who don’t know what you are talking about let me set the record straight. I live in a coastal town. We have an actual inlet to the Atlantic Ocean. We allowed open anchoring for decades. Two hurricanes in 2 years we had to pay to pull the dozens of boats off the land to the cost of $100’s of thousands of dollars. In almost every case these were boats that people would create their own mooring by dropping refrigerators, engine blocks, etc in the water. They would tie their boats up to them and leave. Often for years. Case in point. The city tracked down one owner through outdated registration. When contacted he said he had given the boat to his brother. When they contacted the brother he said yeah but he never got a title so he’s not responsible! Another boat was in a slip. It’s condition was so suspect they could not get insurance until all items on a surveyors checklist were complete. A hurricane was heading right for us and all slips were evacuated. The boat was towed out of the slip and an anchor was put out. The boat sunk during the hurricane. When the owner was contacted the city found out he didn’t have legal ownership to the boat. The title hadn’t been past to the people living aboard. The city was lucky. The local towing company claimed salvage rights so they are responsible for the disposal of the boat.

My city’s answer according to law created a 10 day per month anchoring policy. With one requirement. The boat must have someone on it every 24hrs. The result is our natural harbor has been swept of all the moorings that were illegally laid. Our harbor is now filled with boats moving north and south. Anchor lights are now seen every night on every boat.

Yes as a city we are still tasked with the garbage from the transiting boats. We believe the cost is more than offset by those transients in what they contribute to our town’s economy when they eat at our restaurants or shop at our stores.

So the answer is it is not without cost to cities. There is an old saying, “You get what you pay for.”

Sounds a lot like the anchoring laws we have here in Washington . Works good doesnt it . Ñow if we could get every state to do the same it would get better for everyone.

[sailorboy1]

I think a lot of people don't understand that the Florida rules are just for Florida.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I think a lot of people don't understand that the Florida rules are just for Florida.

Problem with that is if they are not challenged they will set a precedent that some other states can reference when passing their own rules ( and the referenceing in legal challenges).

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Happ

For you arm chair lawyers who don’t know what you are talking about let me set the record straight. I live in a coastal town. We have an actual inlet to the Atlantic Ocean. We allowed open anchoring for decades. Two hurricanes in 2 years we had to pay to pull the dozens of boats off the land to the cost of $100’s of thousands of dollars. In almost every case these were boats that people would create their own mooring by dropping refrigerators, engine blocks, etc in the water. They would tie their boats up to them and leave. Often for years. Case in point. The city tracked down one owner through outdated registration. When contacted he said he had given the boat to his brother. When they contacted the brother he said yeah but he never got a title so he’s not responsible! Another boat was in a slip. It’s condition was so suspect they could not get insurance until all items on a surveyors checklist were complete. A hurricane was heading right for us and all slips were evacuated. The boat was towed out of the slip and an anchor was put out. The boat sunk during the hurricane. When the owner was contacted the city found out he didn’t have legal ownership to the boat. The title hadn’t been past to the people living aboard. The city was lucky. The local towing company claimed salvage rights so they are responsible for the disposal of the boat.



My city’s answer according to law created a 10 day per month anchoring policy. With one requirement. The boat must have someone on it every 24hrs. The result is our natural harbor has been swept of all the moorings that were illegally laid. Our harbor is now filled with boats moving north and south. Anchor lights are now seen every night on every boat.



Yes as a city we are still tasked with the garbage from the transiting boats. We believe the cost is more than offset by those transients in what they contribute to our town’s economy when they eat at our restaurants or shop at our stores.



So the answer is it is not without cost to cities. There is an old saying, “You get what you pay for.”

That sounds fine and logical.
However there are possible exceptions. I believe it was two years ago that we got a call from the intensive care Nurse, our Son had been run over by a hit and run driver. Obviously we left the boat in Vero Beach’s mooring Field, rented a car and took off as he was in intensive care.
Want would have happened if our boat was in your town?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Happ

My city’s answer according to law created a 10 day per month anchoring policy. With one requirement. The boat must have someone on it every 24hrs. The result is our natural harbor has been swept of all the moorings that were illegally laid. Our harbor is now filled with boats moving north and south. Anchor lights are now seen every night on every boat.

It sounds like Beaufort (NC) has struck a reasonable balance. Do you happen to know if the city has also managed to pull those homemade moorings (the frig's, eng blocks, etc.) off the bottom? I'm thinking specifically about the popular anchoring areas in front of and down from Town Docks, and also on the other side. This was always a deterrent to transient boats trying to find a place to anchor short-term, hang out in town for a few days waiting for a decent weather window, and then moving on.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by capeharj

If it's designated navigable water way, it's administered by the Army Corp of Engineers and patrolled by the Coast Guard. Local governments have little or no jurisdiction. What they know is no single boater can do anything about their actions. In Florida an association took the state to court and they then negotiated rules acceptable to most. Answere join or form an association that has the political and financial might to take on the politicians.

You obviously have not read the entire thread. I recommend that you go back and re-read this thread (particularly wrt to cited fed. laws and court cases), or do a little research about federal laws and real court cases.

Florida specific laws are 327.4108 and 327.4109.

[Doek]

Originally Posted by Poche

"The Secretary of Homeland Security is authorized, empowered, and directed to define and establish anchorage grounds for vessels in all harbors, rivers, bays, and other navigable waters of the United States whenever it is manifest to the said Secretary that the maritime or commercial interests of the United States require such anchorage grounds for safe navigation and the establishment of such anchorage grounds shall have been recommended by the Chief of Engineers, and to adopt suitable rules and regulations in relation thereto; and such rules and regulations shall be enforced by the Coast Guard under the direction of the Secretary of Transportation: Provided, That at ports or places where there is no Coast Guard vessel available such rules and regulations may be enforced by the Chief of Engineers under the direction of the Secretary of Homeland Security."

This does not say whether they can defer authority to states and or municipalities but they probably can.

There is no provision for the Federal Government to defer authority to States, Municipalities or any one else. Any State or Municipality that creates anchoring laws is out of their jurisdiction, and frankly, breaking the law as well as violating civil rights.
It was clearly proven in Florida a few years ago, and yet it keeps coming up as though governments, other that the Feds, have ANY authority over Fererally Navigable Waterways. They don't; and any law written by them is challengeable
If the Feds properly policed the anchorages as they are supposed to, the problem wouldn't exist. I have to point out though, that there are homeless living in every city in this Country. Little or nothing is being done about them either. I guess, that in a FREE country, you are allowed to live as you please even if your neighbors don't like it.
I am always amazed at the number of people that are eager to give up their rights and have a more controlling Government. We seem to have learned nothing from Communist Russia, and Nazi Germany.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by quackedo

There is no provision for the Federal Government to defer authority to States, Municipalities or any one else. Any State or Municipality that creates anchoring laws is out of their jurisdiction, and frankly, breaking the law as well as violating civil rights.

43 U.S. Code Chap. 29. Submerged Lands § 1311. Rights of States
(a) Confirmation and establishment of title and ownership of lands and resources; management, administration, leasing, development, and use
It is determined and declared to be in the public interest that (1) title to and ownership of the lands beneath navigable waters within the boundaries of the respective States, and the natural resources within such lands and waters, and (2) the right and power to manage, administer, lease, develop, and use the said lands and natural resources all in accordance with applicable State law be, and they are, subject to the provisions hereof, recognized, confirmed, established, and vested in and assigned to the respective States

Also, you might try starting from the beginning of the thread to brush up on other legal references and court decisions.

[Doek]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

43 U.S. Code Chap. 29. Submerged Lands § 1311. Rights of States
(a) Confirmation and establishment of title and ownership of lands and resources; management, administration, leasing, development, and use
It is determined and declared to be in the public interest that (1) title to and ownership of the lands beneath navigable waters within the boundaries of the respective States, and the natural resources within such lands and waters, and (2) the right and power to manage, administer, lease, develop, and use the said lands and natural resources all in accordance with applicable State law be, and they are, subject to the provisions hereof, recognized, confirmed, established, and vested in and assigned to the respective States

Also, you might try starting from the beginning of the thread to brush up on other legal references and court decisions.

There is nothing in the Statutes you quoted giving anyone but the Feds control over Navigable Waters. I own land that extends to the center of a Federal Navigable waterway. I have been dealing with the Feds for over two decades on exactly these issues. My Fed contact said this to me once when a local municipality tried to exert some authority over my use of my underwater land "They have no Jurisdiction over Federal Waterways. Their jurisdiction ends when their toes get wet."
Seems pretty clear to me.
The local Municipality even tried to take me to court over the issue. The case lasted two minutes.
They had no jurisdiction to write " Water Use Laws". All zoning is "Land Use Laws".

[a64pilot]

Your right the water belongs to the Feds, but it’s tough to anchor without touching the underlying ground, that the State controls.
I see a correlation to airspace, maybe. I can fly over most anyone’s house, but I can’t land in their backyard, or actually fly within 500’ of them unless I’m in an Ag plane or a helicopter.
I assume you can motor by someone’s house, but you can’t anchor, maybe.
It gets sillier too. Every notice that the Manatee zones in Fl are always within 300 ft of the nice houses? The entire downtown area of Jacksonville is a Manatee area cause we all know that Manatees live in the cities where the banks are concrete walls, right?

I’m going to guess that a no wake zone is harder to get passed or maybe speeding in a Manatee zone brings in more money.
Then add to that the fact the the local LEO could not care less, his boss said go arrest those folks, so he does.
Then if you can afford it, you can hire a Johnny Cochran type of Lawyer to fight it. Of course homeless people living in derelict boats don’t have Lawyer money.
Honestly every now and again there is a test case, seems to often come from Fl, when some home owner moors a dozen cheap little sailboats in front of their house to keep boaters away or something equally as silly.

Most often who leads those battles is an organization of boaters, and one has to assume they cherry pick a case they believe they can win.

But don’t think for a minute when the local Sheriff or Fl FWC shows up that your going to educate them on your rights, cause your not, and if you decide that your going to anyway, better have that Johnny Cochran type of Lawyer on retainer and speed dial, cause your going to need them.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Happ

For you arm chair lawyers who don’t know what you are talking about let me set the record straight. I live in a coastal town. We have an actual inlet to the Atlantic Ocean. We allowed open anchoring for decades. Two hurricanes in 2 years we had to pay to pull the dozens of boats off the land to the cost of $100’s of thousands of dollars. In almost every case these were boats that people would create their own mooring by dropping refrigerators, engine blocks, etc in the water. They would tie their boats up to them and leave. Often for years. Case in point. The city tracked down one owner through outdated registration. When contacted he said he had given the boat to his brother. When they contacted the brother he said yeah but he never got a title so he’s not responsible! Another boat was in a slip. It’s condition was so suspect they could not get insurance until all items on a surveyors checklist were complete. A hurricane was heading right for us and all slips were evacuated. The boat was towed out of the slip and an anchor was put out. The boat sunk during the hurricane. When the owner was contacted the city found out he didn’t have legal ownership to the boat. The title hadn’t been past to the people living aboard. The city was lucky. The local towing company claimed salvage rights so they are responsible for the disposal of the boat.

My city’s answer according to law created a 10 day per month anchoring policy. With one requirement. The boat must have someone on it every 24hrs. The result is our natural harbor has been swept of all the moorings that were illegally laid. Our harbor is now filled with boats moving north and south. Anchor lights are now seen every night on every boat.

Yes as a city we are still tasked with the garbage from the transiting boats. We believe the cost is more than offset by those transients in what they contribute to our town’s economy when they eat at our restaurants or shop at our stores.

So the answer is it is not without cost to cities. There is an old saying, “You get what you pay for.”

Have not been there for two years and was always frustrated by the abandoned mooring balls and by those who would dinghy out asking for payment to tie up to their engine blocks.

Has always been one of my favourite stops despite those balls. Glad to hear we'll be able to anchor there again on our way south again next year.

[tomfl]

Just a few random thoughts.

As a cruiser in Florida I have literally spent months anchored out in Florida waters and never had an issue. While I have seen some USCG and FWC boats none have ever shown any interest in my boat. Of course I choose to anchor places where there is not another boat in sight; or maybe one or two at most often more than a football field away.

I have also spent time in mooring fields and marina slips; not to mention traveling extensively in the ICW. It is common to see many boats anchored out and they are often in what I would consider not being seaworthy. The thing is these boats are usually within the legally defined city limits. Some of these areas are also in the legally defined by state law places where mooring fields are, or will be, created. The point being if you want to anchor out as a cruiser away from things like dinghy docks, dumpsters for your trash, a water hose for your tanks, places to buy beer and food there is no problem finding a place to anchor. If you want to use a boat as a crash pad with permanent access to the facilities a city has to offer and not pay for those things via a marina or mooring field you are probably out of luck.

Since I have lived and sailed in Florida since the 1950s I have noticed a huge increase in both what I call high end boats and crash pads for the homeless for want of a better term. The high end boats have over crowded marinas and to some extent mooring fields and the crash pad boats have taken over many previously unused areas. On the other hand many of the less used areas I spent my child hood in have not see the over crowding other places have.

As for legal issues the Florida legislature has created pilot projects that grand local governments jurisdiction over anchoring. In general these pilot projects do pass legal muster since they often create mooring fields and shore facilities for those paying for mooring balls. The problem some see is these mooring fields are in areas already overcrowded with boats of all flavors; so those with the means to pay for a mooring ball are OK with this while those that can not pay are out of luck.

Bottom line is as Attenborough said "I can't think of any problem that would not be easier to solve with fewer people"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRPmLWYbUqA&t=125s

[Islenya]

Originally Posted by Poche

I think you have to have some restrictions or anchorages become floating junkyards.
There should be areas for temporary transiting vessels, waiting out a storm, sheltering from a storm or cruising.
Maybe another area for working vessels anchoring but they should have fishery permits.

Re: floating junkyards
In the FL Keys, there is a plethora of sunken junkyards! So many wrecked boats in the shallow waters are abandoned and no one claims them. Supposedly there is a statute of time required before law officials can remove them, but I know for a fact that many are simply left to disintegrate.... over a period of ten years and more.