FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The cost of disposal has to be inflated somehow, I've seen $200 to $250 a ft tossed around and I can't see how it could cost $6,500 to dispose of a 26' sailboat, but like you said I can't see how a government funded hammer can cost what it does either.

I would think if the lead was salvaged that the actual cost would be minimal

I already posted in some other thread before the real breakdown of the disposal costs to the hauler who happens to strip these boats for parts as well. Basically he says if the boat floats or is in floatable shape AND has papers AND an engine that starts or at least turns and/or has a trailer he will remove it for free or if the engine is quickly marketable will even pay something. In all other cases he demands payment equivalent to about the price of his haul plus may be a month's or two worth of storage fees just because his yard is full of such boats and he has more boats than workers to strip them. But on his end he says he makes on average about $3K long term on each junked boat. That includes whatever the owner can pay him, selling the engine, trailer, mast/rigging/lead keel on sailboats, etc. Most other parts sit there for years, some eventually get sold or traded some just junked years later, such as old electronics, etc. Less $200-300 it costs him for the dump to take the hull. The cost of his employees is constant and is not figured into his costs as he's paying them regardless, whether they're strippin such boats or shlepping around the yard looking busy.

So how do we get from a private hauler making $3K on a derelict to gov't telling us it costs thousands to dispose it?

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I'm not in Marathon, but at a marina in central Florida. There is an old wooden Chris Craft 40 foot power boat on our dock that has sunk 3 times in three weeks. It has a tarp around it to slow the water intrusion but it still sinks on a regular basis. No towing company will tow it.

I for one have a problem with putting people in jail for not complying with a law when there is no means of doing so.

Exactly. The same thing exists in almost every marina I've been in , both in Florida and California. There are boat owners who for whatever reason can't get their boat hauled. Most marina's in the SF bay will not touch a wood boat no matter what condition it's in. Sad as some are very Nice.

[sailorchic34]

[QUOTE=Island Time O25;2245464
So how do we get from a private hauler making $3K on a derelict to gov't telling us it costs thousands to dispose it? [/QUOTE]

The government, counts the time the various law enforcement folks go back and forth to a boat plus all the office admin time. That does add up. But it's sort of like the CG, either they are out training or out rescuing, it's the same money, either way.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Exactly. The same thing exists in almost every marina I've been in , both in Florida and California. There are boat owners who for whatever reason can't get their boat hauled. Most marina's in the SF bay will not touch a wood boat no matter what condition it's in. Sad as some are very Nice.

sc, do you know what the old woodies, the really beautiful ones, do? I saw them all over and met Tom of Ceolitto once in Clipper Cove.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Could you rig a canvas sling on a big spreader or use multiple straps on the spreader or wrap-it/strap-it and pull it up on the beach to dismantle?

There are no beaches nearby. The Marina is bulk headed and the land nearby is peoples' back yards. Someone might be able to rig a spreader and or wrap it , but no one capable of doing so will touch it.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Careful now, you are talking about a significant percentage of my neighbors here in Santa Cruz. The ones with broken down mobile homes are the higher end of the spectrum; most just have a stolen bicycle or shopping cart.

How do you enforce rules against people whose life improves when they go to jail?

It was approx. 14 years since I've been in Marathon. I only caught a quick view of a run down trailer park there. Amazing finding people living in near poverty in such a beautiful place. Derelict boats may only be the tip of the iceberg.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Cadence

It was approx. 14 years since I've been in Marathon. I only caught a quick view of a run down trailer park there. Amazing finding people living in near poverty in such a beautiful place. Derelict boats may only be the tip of the iceberg.

The problem with derelict boats laws is that they only push the issue somewhere else. And the whole cycle starts anew at that other place. Most people I talk to in the Keys say that for decades the area due to its climate, relaxed attitudes and its geographic isolation was the end of the road type of place for many people sliding down the economic and life scale. And yes, derelict boats are only the tip of that iceberg.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Cadence

It was approx. 14 years since I've been in Marathon. I only caught a quick view of a run down trailer park there. Amazing finding people living in near poverty in such a beautiful place. Derelict boats may only be the tip of the iceberg.

In my trip up from SF to Vancouver Island, almost every single harbor we entered (and we entered them all from Bodega Bay to Neah Bay), had trailer "parks" surrounding the harbors. The "parks" ranged from nice (rare, a good one was in Winchester Bay, OR) to downright nasty (most of the rest).

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

When I purchased my boat for liveaboard, the rules were you needed a 30 foot boat to live on. Now many places say 35 feet is the minimum. Where do you think the folks with a 30 foot liveaboard
go to when they are kicked out for not having a 35 foot boat now.

Sailorchick, help me out here. Who established the "rules" you speak of?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by crabcake

Sailorchick, help me out here. Who established the "rules" you speak of?

I don't think she will mind me answering, but the Marina's.
Of course its driven by economics, those Marina's can demand larger, nicer boats, so they do. They want a "Nice" Marina, so they can charge more. I would too if I owned one.
Her point I believe is if they kick you out of a Marina, what choice do you have other than to anchor out?

As a former RV owner, it is real common in the RV world for a park to set age limits on RV's, although if yours is exceptionally well kept, they may look the other way.
Having an old boat myself, I hope the Marina's don't go that way, cause I do want to be able to stay in one if needed.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I don't think she will mind me answering, but the Marina's.
Of course its driven by economics, those Marina's can demand larger, nicer boats, so they do. They want a "Nice" Marina, so they can charge more. I would too if I owned one.
Her point I believe is if they kick you out of a Marina, what choice do you have other than to anchor out?

As a former RV owner, it is real common in the RV world for a park to set age limits on RV's, although if yours is exceptionally well kept, they may look the other way.
Having an old boat myself, I hope the Marina's don't go that way, cause I do want to be able to stay in one if needed.

Well the argument then is with the Marina, as from your answer these are not laws. The marina owner is entitled to do whatever they want in making and enforcing rules about their property. We haven't become communists yet.

While it might be distasteful to those who are required to move, marinas (except for public, government run) are private property.

I really don't understand how this subtopic even came up as the original post is about those who had multiple notices of violation, attempted to evade enforcement, dumped raw crap in Boot Key, didn't pay their state registrations, had no safety equipment on their boat, willfully failed to show up for court summonses, tried to move their boat to hide from enforcement, ad nauseaum.

This has deteriorated into class struggle about those "with" and those "without." Its become a bully pulpit for those with social agendas versus simply following the law, and not sticking your middle finger up as your answer.

I would venture a guess that most of the anti-derelict proponents don't live in Marathon. I am, however, moving to Marathon. I'm not rich by any means but I can tell you that a $600K house is going to pay in property takes almost $7K a year. If I'm going to pay that in taxes, I don't want some derelict siting in the canal I am on.

And I sure as H@ll don't want someone who doesn't live in Monroe County telling me what I should like and should not like. Or should do or not do.

Derelicts = NIMBY !

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I'm not in Marathon, but at a marina in central Florida. There is an old wooden Chris Craft 40 foot power boat on our dock that has sunk 3 times in three weeks. It has a tarp around it to slow the water intrusion but it still sinks on a regular basis. No towing company will tow it. They're afraid it will sink while being towed. There are a couple of travel lifts within a couple of miles but they refuse to lift it for fear it will crumble. I also heard he tried to get a crane and barge to come get it, but they too refused to have anything to do with it. So there it sits sinking once or twice a week. How is this owner to dispose of this boat? This boat clearly meets all of the criteria for being derelict yet there is no way for the owner to dispose of it. The Marina wants him out of here so I suppose the only solution is to get someone to tow it out and let it sink. Of course if the authorities ever find out who towed it they will probably be arrested along with the owner. I for one have a problem with putting people in jail for not complying with a law when there is no means of doing so.

What you are posting is hearsay, not confirmed fact. That boat can be moved and junked.

You can have a problem with jailing people who don't comply with the laws if you want to, but they are still not in compliance. They obey the law, pay the fine or go to jail. Society doesn't work if people just do what they feel like doing and obey only the laws they choose to obey.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

............Her point I believe is if they kick you out of a Marina, what choice do you have other than to anchor out?
...................... .

Go to another marina?

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by rwidman

What you are posting is hearsay, not confirmed fact. That boat can be moved and junked.

You can have a problem with jailing people who don't comply with the laws if you want to, but they are still not in compliance. They obey the law, pay the fine or go to jail. Society doesn't work if people just do what they feel like doing and obey only the laws they choose to obey.

I have been told this by the owner and the marina owner. The local Sea Tow operator is located across the harbor and was on the dock one day looking at it though I wasn't in on the conversation he did not tow the boat. I know one of the travel lift owners and he wants nothing to do with it. I don't personally know what the other travel lift owner has to say. I admit I have no first hand knowledge of the towing company's position, but since the marina owner also tried to get it moved and couldn't I have no reason to believe this is hearsay and not fact. What is available in your area has nothing to do with the services available in this area. Since you seem to have divine know of how to get this boat moved please let me know how and I'll pass it along.

[PhiSig1071]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Her point I believe is if they kick you out of a Marina, what choice do you have other than to anchor out?

Yes, but the derelict boats in BKH aren't just "anchored out". These aren't people getting kicked out of slips or off moorings balls. These are floating piles of garbage that are usually unsuitable for habitation. Having lived in the Keys, and having many friends who still do, it is possible to live cheaply (and "free!!!!" as so many people lament) while abiding by the laws. I don't know what privately owned marina rules in California have to do with laws in Florida.

Originally Posted by crabcake

I would venture a guess that most of the anti-derelict proponents don't live in Marathon. I am, however, moving to Marathon. I'm not rich by any means but I can tell you that a $600K house is going to pay in property takes almost $7K a year. If I'm going to pay that in taxes, I don't want some derelict siting in the canal I am on.

And I sure as H@ll don't want someone who doesn't live in Monroe County telling me what I should like and should not like. Or should do or not do.

Derelicts = NIMBY !

$600k for waterfront house on BKH? 2/1 condos are $300k with no dockage! You might be able to find something on a canal for that much.