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CareKnot · 02-11-2016, 07:21

While we don't exactly agree on the homeless population, let's put a pin in that for now.

As far as the derelict boat problem goes, the homeless population that takes up residence in them are incidental to this issue. Since we are talking about Florida in this OP, the state has clear ownership and transfer regulations. Since they have a large (voting) boating community, they are hesitant to simply trash every unattended boat or boat where ownership is unclear. Seems understandable.

There are two problems that come up when enforcing the derelict boat problem as I understand the situation. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

An occupied boat is considered a private residence according to Supreme Court rulings.
Removing of a 'derelict' boat is also complicated by international treaties, ownership issues, environmental regulations and a host of other applicable statutes and liability issues.

I understand that tackling this issue is difficult in the extreme, but transferring responsibility and liability for these boats to the people least able to respond to the problem is 'Mr. Magoo' short-sighted.

To repeat my earlier position, the owner that did not properly transfer the boat under Florida law should be held responsible for the disposition of the derelict boat, including the eviction of any squatters. If ownership cannot be established or found, provision should be made for ownership to default to the state. If the squatters press their 'rights' to the boat - fine - let them claim the bull and get the horns with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The boats I'm talking about, have no sails, often one of the stays is broken, there may or may not even be a boom or mast, the boat is covered in bird droppings, may or may not have the remains of a blue tarp trying to cover the cockpit and is anchored by a 1/2 nylon line with maybe a Danforth undersized anchor.
If there are any lights on it at all at night it will be a garden Solar light, but likely unlit.

It is the marine equivalent of a cardboard box.

If someone is living in it, they shouldn't have to. But often I believe they do so by choice. In my life I have met quite a few "homeless" people, and it seems at least sometime, they live that way, because they want to. Many have the skills to do "better", but chose not to.

Then on a completely different note, most of the derelict boats where I live are seemingly abandoned, nobody is ever there, yet they take up space, look terrible, become a hazard in any storm, and usually sink, often of course you see just the mast sticking out of the water

**a64pilot** · 02-11-2016, 08:37

I think you will find is a very significant number of the abandoned boats that ownership can't be determined, either there is no hull number or it has been removed.

There is a process by which boats can be declared abandoned. It's done in other parts of Fl, but for some reason not in the keys I guess? The process apparently starts with a big orange sticker stuck to the boat. Leave your car on the side of the road and see how long it takes for that orange sticker to appear, and how short a time it takes for the car to be towed. Apparently a similar process is applied to boats, just the time periods seem to be a lot longer.

I suspicion, but that is all that it is a suspicion with zero actual knowledge, that some significant number of those boats in the Keys may be owned by a few individuals that sell them to other people likely that just moved down and can't find a place to live. I assume they are often repossessed, and I'd bet some are just taken over after having been abandoned. Sort of a Slum Lord if you will.

But, I think its not possible to determine legal ownership in many of these boats.
Just guessing.

I'd say the homeless that take up residence are not incidental, has to make it a lot tougher to dispose of a derelict boat if someone is living in it? Especially if you can't determine legal ownership?
Its not like an abandoned house in that respect, the house has an owner that is recorded at the Courthouse

Scout 30 · 02-11-2016, 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I think you will find is a very significant number of the abandoned boats that ownership can't be determined, either there is no hull number or it has been removed.

There is a process by which boats can be declared abandoned. It's done in other parts of Fl, but for some reason not in the keys I guess? The process apparently starts with a big orange sticker stuck to the boat. Leave your car on the side of the road and see how long it takes for that orange sticker to appear, and how short a time it takes for the car to be towed. Apparently a similar process is applied to boats, just the time periods seem to be a lot longer.

I suspicion, but that is all that it is a suspicion with zero actual knowledge, that some significant number of those boats in the Keys may be owned by a few individuals that sell them to other people likely that just moved down and can't find a place to live. I assume they are often repossessed, and I'd bet some are just taken over after having been abandoned. Sort of a Slum Lord if you will.

But, I think its not possible to determine legal ownership in many of these boats.
Just guessing.

I'd say the homeless that take up residence are not incidental, has to make it a lot tougher to dispose of a derelict boat if someone is living in it? Especially if you can't determine legal ownership?
Its not like an abandoned house in that respect, the house has an owner that is recorded at the Courthouse

In Florida you have to renew your registration sticker every year. To renew you have to have ownership. If you are living on a boat & you have an expired sticker you get a ticket. If you don't pay the fine & renew the sticker your boat is derelict. If a boat is vacant & anchored with expired stickers it's a derelict. I think going after boats with missing or expired registration stickers makes sense. I'd give them a reasonable waiting period & then remove them whether they are occupied or not. This would not solve all the irresponsible boat ownership problems but it would be a good start.

zboss · 02-11-2016, 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scout 30

If a boat is used daily & can move under it's own power it is not derelict.

Not even used daily... the majority of boat are derelict while sitting in a marina.

As far as propulsion is concerned I am sure that you could make an argument that a boat is still a boat even if it's engines are inoperable and it does not have sails, unless they want to claim that a rowing dinghy isn't a boat, a gondola isn't a boat, a paddle boat isn't a boat, and so forth.

All boats take on water. A boat that would sink without active attention of a person could be considered a standard definition of derelict even if that boat were a brand new Oyster with its bilge pumps inoperable and a leak in the stuffing box. Whereas a 1971 Pearson that may look like crap but is not sinking is not a derelict.

In the end, it will probably remain to be incumbent on the person and to our boating society to afford to take cases to court and win through appeals if necessary... but very few people that have what would be considered derelict boats have the money to make a case, much less appeal it to the federal courts.

**sailorchic34** · 02-11-2016, 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I think you will find is a very significant number of the abandoned boats that ownership can't be determined, either there is no hull number or it has been removed.

Many older boats, like mine don't have a HIN number as they were built before November 1972. I know that living on the hook in winter (at least in the SF bay area) can be a cold, stormy time.

Yes there are people living on what are Derelicts, for what ever reason. Myself, if they are not hurting anyone and don't have support elsewhere, I say leave them be. Perhaps offer assistance.

Abandoned derelict vessels should go. I think everyone agrees on that. But I have a hard time justifying taking someone who is more or less living with a roof over his head and putting him on the street or in jail for just being homeless.

That a boat does not have a mast or rigging, in my mind is not a reason to have it destroyed. Lord knows I've pondered that I might one day remove the mast and rigging on the Rose to make it easier river cruising up smaller tributaries. I motor a goodly bit anyway and a sailboat does make an economical cruiser. Mind you I probably wouldn't. I've also seen some nice "clean" former sailboats now setup as a motor cruiser.

**a64pilot** · 02-11-2016, 09:30

Yes, the Homeless living on derelict boats is a difficult problem, I have no idea how to solve it, perhaps leaving them alone is the best course of action? However society in the US won't do that I don't think.

I don't pretend to have an answer, just an opinion. That opinion is that if the number of permanently anchored boats continues to increase, then my ability to anchor will be negatively impacted.

There is I think precedence for this, way back in I think the late 20's and early 30's Hooverville's began to pop up around the Country, I think maybe these anchorages are perhaps modern day Hoovervilles?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooverville

**a64pilot** · 02-11-2016, 09:31

SC, I am talking about boats that are simply falling apart, not boats that for whatever reason someone has removed the mast, but one that has been Dis-masted from neglect.
Really a different thing.

**sailorchic34** · 02-11-2016, 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by a64pilot

There is I think precedence for this, way back in I think the late 20's and early 30's Hooverville's began to pop up around the Country, I think maybe these anchorages are perhaps modern day Hoovervilles?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooverville

I would tend to agree that the down and out anchorouts could be a modern hooverville. Indicative of a more systemic issue with modern society. Perhaps a new WPA program to get folks working. The tiny homes built in some parts on the country for the homeless may be a good start too.

Byrdman · 02-11-2016, 10:01

Just in from Longboat Key, FL.

Longboat Key pays $5,200 to remove derelict sailboat from Sarasota Bay | Longboat Key | Your Observer

uncle stinkybob · 02-11-2016, 14:47

ok, back to the poor and how they can't afford their dream and the rest of us should foot the bill? Or was it about removing derelict boats and cost to tax payer's?

I'm glad I live in Washington State. The anchoring in public water's rules here are clear, concise and enforced. Here you will pay. If you don't like the law's here, don't come here. If you don't like the law's the good people of Florida have voted on, don't go there. Seems so simple, yet so few seem to understand it.

Cottontop · 02-11-2016, 14:57

I thought that the thread was really about wealthy homeowners trying to restrict anchoring in their "backyards" by using the "derelict boat problem" to get their noses in the tent.

Cadence · 02-11-2016, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

I would tend to agree that the down and out anchorouts could be a modern hooverville. Indicative of a more systemic issue with modern society. Perhaps a new WPA program to get folks working. The tiny homes built in some parts on the country for the homeless may be a good start too.

It is amazing how many people are holier than thou. I can understand derelict boats being a problem but not painting anchoring with such a broad brush.

CareKnot · 02-11-2016, 22:01

I have lived in Washington state. Gee. They are perfect. Really! No! I mean it. it was heaven... 😒

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle stinkybob

ok, back to the poor and how they can't afford their dream and the rest of us should foot the bill? Or was it about removing derelict boats and cost to tax payer's?

I'm glad I live in Washington State. The anchoring in public water's rules here are clear, concise and enforced. Here you will pay. If you don't like the law's here, don't come here. If you don't like the law's the good people of Florida have voted on, don't go there. Seems so simple, yet so few seem to understand it.