Castro dead at 90

[Exile]

Originally Posted by fuentes

Like a senator said when a reporter brought to his attention that the dictator was a SOB. The senator answered. Yes. But he is our SOB!

I thought that was Teddy Roosevelt??! When I was younger I used to take offense at such cynicism. Now that I'm older I can see the wisdom. Less a question of losing my idealism and more about being that much more exposed to the nature of man (i.e. humankind).

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by fuentes

As detective "Boston Brownie" says "follow the money".

Like a senator said when a reporter brought to his attention that the dictator was a SOB. The senator answered. Yes. But he is our SOB!

I agree but would add that this still only explains 1/2 of the money to follow. Yes, the profits made by the US companies since early 1970s opening of China are enormous. But so are the losses to the US economy from the loss of manufacturing to China. And the profits by formerly mostly US and now fully international/global companies are not even reinvested here in US but go back abroad to China, India and whatnot. We can't even built anymore a decent quality boat for the price an average US boater can afford, claims by Benehuntelinas aficionados notwithstanding. One reason is not just competition from outsourced builders but mostly from the fact that US middle class incomes, adjusted for inflation, have stagnated since early 1970s while the price of everything kept a steady upward pace. So it's not that the price of a quality US built boat is too high but the incomes of potential "average Joe" buyers are too low.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by fuentes

How many millions came to the Americas from all over the world and never went back(this includes my own)?

There is always a different way of looking at things. Do not get all upset. I like to play the devils advocate.. It brings out different perspectives and can become great conversations. Like President Reagan said" We can disagree without being disagreable".

Much insight here. In the case of Cuba, it's the quandary of not wanting to support a terribly repressive, autocratic regime, as opposed to the equally well-intended desire to help ordinary citizens and their economy with exposure to the outside world and much needed dollars.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Saudi etc the same.. Political expediency is profit driven.. and Cuba aint got the cash to buy 'Favourable Status'..
Its not the Politics..

Since we don't have 1mil Saudis in Florida clamoring for us NOT to trade with SA it's still partly politics.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Exile

Much insight here. In the case of Cuba, it's the quandary of not wanting to support a terribly repressive, autocratic regime, as opposed to the equally well-intended desire to help ordinary citizens and their economy with exposure to the outside world and much needed dollars.

Having watched other Communist dictatorships fall in the late 80s, I believe that the Cuban regime is surviving not despite US sanctions but because of them. And that US gov't knows and understands this very well. Without the sanctions in place for the past 50+ years, Cuba would go the way of other Eastern block Communist regimes probably even earlier than 1989 since it is so close to us and our influence would be so much greater without the sanctions. Unfortunately the next Administration is surrounding itself with hawks on this issue and this does not bode well for the cruising community.

PS Hopefully the last sentence is enough to de-politicize the post.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Having watched other Communist dictatorships fall in the late 80s, I believe that the Cuban regime is surviving not despite US sanctions but because of them. And that US gov't knows and understands this very well. Without the sanctions in place for the past 50+ years, Cuba would go the way of other Eastern block Communist regimes probably even earlier than 1989 since it is so close to us and our influence would be so much greater without the sanctions. Unfortunately the next Administration is surrounding itself with hawks on this issue and this does not bode well for the cruising community.

PS Hopefully the last sentence is enough to de-politicize the post.

LOL, but nice try! Your assessment may be correct . . . or not. But more importantly going forward, let's hope the new administration will take a pragmatic approach. As for the politics, the somewhat softening attitudes of the younger generation in the Cuban-American community might help (despite all the election year bluster & rhetoric).

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Having watched other Communist dictatorships fall in the late 80s, I believe that the Cuban regime is surviving not despite US sanctions but because of them. And that US gov't knows and understands this very well. Without the sanctions in place for the past 50+ years, Cuba would go the way of other Eastern block Communist regimes probably even earlier than 1989 since it is so close to us and our influence would be so much greater without the sanctions. Unfortunately the next Administration is surrounding itself with hawks on this issue and this does not bode well for the cruising community.

PS Hopefully the last sentence is enough to de-politicize the post.

That's the absolute thruth.. Any nation anywhere in the world loving more the U. S. Of A are the Cubans, even more than the US citizens themself. And they don't blaim the US goverment of the embargo, just politics and first generation expacts..

BR Teddy

[salticrak]

As someone who fought against his troops in Angola, I will certainly not shed a tear for this mongrel.

[HopCar]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I guess you don't go to Mexico either. Since 12 million of them came here.

I have no problem with people coming here. Immigrants make us stronger.

I choose not to go to Cuba because the people are not free to come here. Seeing the empty rafts drifting past Miami and wondering if the people were picked up or died has affected me deeply.

The argument that visiting Cuba is good for the people is a valid position.

I'm not saying anyone shouldn't go. Many of my Cuban friends have gone there. I just think you should be aware of the situation there. Things are not as good there as the media is currently trying to portray it. The rafts are still coming.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by HopCar

I have no problem with people coming here. Immigrants make us stronger.

I choose not to go to Cuba because the people are not free to come here. Seeing the empty rafts drifting past Miami and wondering if the people were picked up or died has affected me deeply.

The argument that visiting Cuba is good for the people is a valid position.

I'm not saying anyone shouldn't go. Many of my Cuban friends have gone there. I just think you should be aware of the situation there. Things are not as good there as the media is currently trying to portray it. The rafts are still coming.

I really don't want to split hairs here to invoke a back and forth point for point. But I will point out Castro opened the door at least two times for people to leave. He certainly was not going to provide the transportation. Sadly, make-shift rafts were hodged-podged together and people with no idea of how severe a 90 mile trip could be. But the fact remains, he had let them try and go.
We are also not free to go to Cuba. What about the restrictions China puts on their people and the atrocities they commit? I know that doesn't stop you from going to Home depot. If you're going to wave the flag, know why you're waving it.

[chris mac]

Cubans are able to leave cuba for holidays, and to move to other countries. It is very expensive, and a lot of red tape, but it can and has been done.

[HopCar]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I really don't want to split hairs here to invoke a back and forth point for point. But I will point out Castro opened the door at least two times for people to leave. He certainly was not going to provide the transportation. Sadly, make-shift rafts were hodged-podged together and people with no idea of how severe a 90 mile trip could be. But the fact remains, he had let them try and go.
We are also not free to go to Cuba. What about the restrictions China puts on their people and the atrocities they commit? I know that doesn't stop you from going to Home depot. If you're going to wave the flag, know why you're waving it.

Celestial, I'm not waving a flag. I don't like the Cuban embargo. It is just as wrong of our government to tell us we can't go to Cuba as it is for the Castro boys to prevent their people from leaving.

I don't like the wet foot dry foot policy. It encourages the Cuban people to attempt a very dangerous crossing with little hope of making it to the US. Some die, most are returned to Cuba where I suspect the government makes life even more difficult for them.

Castro opened the port of Marriel (sp?) because he needed to relieve pressure on his regime. He also took the opportunity to force the people, who went there to get their families out, to carry criminals and the insane to the US.

The second time he opened the gate was for the same reason, to relieve internal pressure. Our government, remembering the criminals and insane, did everything they could to prevent Cuban Americans from going to get their families. That was when rafts became very common off Miami. So many rafts that hundreds of boats from Miami went offshore to catch the Dolphin Fish that schooled around them.

There is progress in Cuba. They are experimenting with limited capitalism and it is working. Cuba is getting better. I actually expect to see much more freedom there soon. I just don't think it's going to happen until Raul dies. When things improve, I'd like to visit.

I respect your choice to go to Cuba now. I'll even argue that you should never have been prevented from going to Cuba. Please respect my decision not to go, yet.

[Celestialsailor]

Hey Hopcar...I total respect your wishes not to go there and for the time being, I cannot unless I go back to my country of birth and fly from there. Right now there are too many other places I can go that are easier for me. And yes, things seem to be a little easier the last 5 years, at least by my understanding