2017 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The penalty isn't applied to redress the time lost. The penalty is intended to discourage the breaking of the rules. WO created a potentially dangerous situation. As has been said before, a five minute penalty would have effectively been no penalty, and in future races skippers would ignore the rules.

Likewise for any time penalty less than ~27 minutes and a 30 minute penalty could look like they did it just to disqualify WO.

As someone said (you?), 1 hour is nice round figure and it's meaning is clear - do the wrong thing (twice) and you will get hit with a ton of bricks.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The penalty isn't applied to redress the time lost. The penalty is intended to discourage the breaking of the rules. WO created a potentially dangerous situation. As has been said before, a five minute penalty would have effectively been no penalty, and in future races skippers would ignore the rules.

Wasn't questioning the rules. And I think you took my "real winner" abit literally, wasn't actually referring to the race result.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by daletournier

It was obviously a just and correct decision based on the opinions of THE more informed than me (not a racer). In saying that, did the infringement cost Commanche that much time that they would of won if it hadn't occurred?

If the answer is no, it would of been refreshing to see Commanche not make the protest in a show of great sportsmanship, choosing not to win by default. Yep WO screwed up but the faster boat on the day won the race. Just MHO.

Well C didn't know if their protest would be upheld prior to making it and also could not determine what the penalty could be either if it was upheld.

The only option for them was to file the protest and let the arbitrators follow their procedure.

IMO, their actions where i.a.w.the rules and sportsmanship.

[daletournier]

Just for clarity in case others misunderstood what I was attempting to say. Rules are rules, I get it, the business of yacht racing I get, and business is business , my point which is just mine was the skipper of Commanche had a choice (or the people in charge did), not suggesting they acted in properly, I'm saying if the altercation didn't effect the first over the line result then Commanche could have chosen not to lodge the protest, this would have been a huge sportsmanship display. Of course they didn't have to, not suggesting they did. I have know idea what the financial implications or otherwise would be if they chose to go down that path.

Now 44, absolutely go ahead and dispute what I've written , it's just my opinion one that's not very important to me, but how about doing it only if you disagree, not just to score some sort of point.

[daletournier]

Just for clarity in case others misunderstood what I was attempting to say. Rules are rules, I get it, yacht racing is a business, I get it , business is business , my point which is just mine was the skipper of Commanche had a choice (or the people in charge did), not suggesting they acted in properly, I'm saying if the altercation didn't effect the first over the line result then Commanche could have chosen not to lodge the protest, this would have been a huge sportsmanship display. Of course they didn't have to, not suggesting they did. I have know idea what the financial implications or otherwise would be if they chose to go down that path. Commanche had the power to determine the outcome.

Now 44, absolutely go ahead and dispute what I've written , it's just my opinion one that's not very important to me, but how about doing it only if you disagree, not just to score some sort of point.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Well C didn't know if their protest would be upheld prior to making it and also could not determine what the penalty could be either if it was upheld.

The only option for them was to file the protest and let the arbitrators follow their procedure.

IMO, their actions where i.a.w.the rules and sportsmanship.

Understand what your saying and not suggesting that Commanche acted in a non sportsmanship manner, in fact one could definitely argue WO acted in a non sportsmanship manner, but my post was referring to the lodging of the protest.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The penalty isn't applied to redress the time lost. The penalty is intended to discourage the breaking of the rules. WO created a potentially dangerous situation. As has been said before, a five minute penalty would have effectively been no penalty, and in future races skippers would ignore the rules.

And to encourage taking a penalty at the time if you do break a rule.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by daletournier

If the answer is no, it would of been refreshing to see Commanche not make the protest in a show of great sportsmanship, choosing not to win by default. Yep WO screwed up but the faster boat on the day won the race. Just MHO.

I don't think it would have been any particularly great sportsmanship for Comanche to not file a protest. I think it's better sportsmanship to raise the protest flag whenever you are fouled (they clearly had good reason to believe they were) and let the judges review the incident and make their decision and determine the appropriate penalty. I think it would be worse sportsmanship for them to wait and see how their protest might affect the results before deciding whether or not to file it. If Comanche would have filed a protest over a similar incident against the smallest boat in the race that had no chance at competing with them for line honors, then they should have (and did) file a protest against another super maxi like WO11. Yes, WO11 completed the race course in the least amount of time but they didn't do it within the rules of the race and that's all part of it. They easily could have, but they didn't. There's more to winning a sailboat race than just having the fastest boat. Just like in every other sport, if you want to win you have to play by the rules. It's not good sportsmanship to enable others to get away with breaking the rules without taking the appropriate penalty that any other boat in the fleet would have expected to take for doing something similar. WO11 made an honest sailing mistake and that happens, no big deal. But their second, much bigger mistake that cost them the race was in not owning up to it and doing a 720. Comanche did nothing wrong and displayed impeccable sportsmanship and deserved to win the line honors race when all is considered, nothing "tainted" about it.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Just for clarity in case others misunderstood what I was attempting to say. Rules are rules, I get it, yacht racing is a business, I get it , business is business , my point which is just mine was the skipper of Commanche had a choice (or the people in charge did), not suggesting they acted in properly, I'm saying if the altercation didn't effect the first over the line result then Commanche could have chosen not to lodge the protest, this would have been a huge sportsmanship display. Of course they didn't have to, not suggesting they did. I have know idea what the financial implications or otherwise would be if they chose to go down that path. Commanche had the power to determine the outcome.

Now 44, absolutely go ahead and dispute what I've written , it's just my opinion one that's not very important to me, but how about doing it only if you disagree, not just to score some sort of point.

I do disagree. The crew of WO obviously thought they'd get away with breaking the rules. If Comanche or the race committee had let them they'd have set an example - in ocean races you can pretty much ignore the rules.

The size of the penalty should be such that you would definitely not do it again.

In motor racing the penalty for jumping the start is often a drive through the pits. A @ 30 second penalty for maybe a 1/2 second advantage. Nobody deliberately jumps the start.

[Jim Cate]

A jolly good question. The point of which is that Comanche reached the mouth of the Derwent River first, ahead of Wild Oats XI. But the finish line is at least 1 nautical mile up the Derwent. And in the light and fluky air of the river, WOXI overtook Comanche and finished 26 minutes before C.

A couple of points:

1. I was not watching on the AIS, but rather on the site tracker, and that was not updated all that often... but I'm not sure that C was ahead at the mouth of the Derwent (usually set at the Iron Pot light). They had been pretty close coming across Storm Bay IIRC, with the apparent lead changing at odd moments. At any rate, they were quite closely matched at that point.

2. It's not one mile from the Pot to the finish line, it's around 11.5 miles. And, from lots of personal experience, the conditions along that estuary are VERY flukey in light airs, with isolated patches of wind, swirls in the currents and generally frustrating conditions. It is clear that WO opened up a commanding lead over t hose miles, a very commendable job IMO. Don't know if it was from better light air boat speed, better local knowledge (could be very important), or just good luck in being in the right place at the right moments as the cats paws swept down. Whatever the reason, considering how closely they had been matched all the way down, that was an impressive bit of sailing.

3. Re the idea of a "tainted" record: This is a personal feeling, but an elapsed time record for a race course that ignores the fact that another boat did it faster at the same time is somehow less of an accolade than it should be. If the foul had had any significant effect upon the elapsed time, then it would be different, but IMO the foul had no measurable influence on WO's or C's finish times. I'm not saying that the penalty was wrong, nor that the final race results were not just... only that I personally will never feel that C is a clear record holder. I have no suggestion for a different outcome, and I doubt if anyone else cares w hat I think (as usual!), but that's my reality.

A very interesting race! Normally our plan is to NEVER head south from the mainland on Boxing day 'cause the weather ALWAYS goes crook for the race, but this time it would have been a great weather window for a cruiser heading for Tassie!

Jim

[Factor]

In years to come it will be Comanche with the win in the record book and with the race record. As it should be.

That is all

[Factor]

I set a record time for Sydney to Hobart, the boat had a couple of thousand hp but we did have a small sail up, mainly for shade. So like - I am the moral record holder.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Factor

I set a record time for Sydney to Hobart, the boat had a couple of thousand hp but we did have a small sail up, mainly for shade. So like - I am the moral record holder.

How nice for you... but I'm not sure of your point here.

Jim

[Factor]

My point is that records and wins only result when you sail by the rules, woulda shoulda coulda just doesn't count. You sail by the rules, as you contract to do when you enter, or suffer the consequences. The penalty applied to that motorsailor Wild Oats is not meant to be redress but rather a penalty for breaking the rules. They were lucky to not be disqualified, particularly when they chose not to under take a 720 and deal with the matter on the water.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Factor

My point is that records and wins only result when you sail by the rules, woulda shoulda coulda just doesn't count. You sail by the rules, as you contract to do when you enter, or suffer the consequences. The penalty applied to that motorsailor Wild Oats is not meant to be redress but rather a penalty for breaking the rules. They were lucky to not be disqualified, particularly when they chose not to under take a 720 and deal with the matter on the water.

In general I quite agree with this, and think that I have expressed that in posts above. Yet, I will always know that on the day, WO did it faster.

And all this angst about the supers... kinda odd for me to be so involved, because I don't believe that they should be racing with their powered hydraulics. I'm conflicted, because these boats are marvels of engineering and design talent... but I wish that talent was told to stop with the engines!

In truth, the big maxi multihull vessels are more interesting technically, and the feats of their sailors far more inspiring than these ego stroking money pits.

Jim