First boat for decent size family

[kosine]

Hi all! Long time reader, first time poster. I'm new to sailing, but don't yet have a boat. While I have some clubs nearby, they don't quite have boats big enough for what I'm looking for or are too far away. Essentially, I would like a decent size day cruiser that's good for a family of five. I'd like to be able to grow with the boat somewhat, but don't expect to fulfill longer/multi-day trips.

So, some info and what I'm looking for:
- I am new to sailing. I've taken the ASA 101 class, but no boat yet
- Looking for the smallest boat with the least amount of maintenance required that: 1) will comfortably fit a family of 5 with the occasional friend or two and has a head (or at least a space/privacy for a porta potti)
- Target to sail at least one day a week with up to three times a week
- Texas/Gulf Coat sailing
- Ideally an older boat to minimize depreciation rate as much as possible
- Ideally a boat that would be relatively easy to resell
- Would prefer to spend as little as possible (wouldn't we all), but targeting $20k or under. Might be able to stretch to $50k for the right boat.
- No rush to buy, but want to put my skills to use and keep them going.

My plan is to get a boat we can enjoy for a few years here in the Texas Gulf Coast area. As my skills grow, maybe charter larger boats on vacations over the years. Eventually, after several years, maybe move into a larger boat.

I can find boats that meet several of my requirements, but I'm having difficulty finding something that is relatively small and would fit us all, while having a head.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by kosine

Hi all! Long time reader, first time poster. I'm new to sailing, but don't yet have a boat. While I have some clubs nearby, they don't quite have boats big enough for what I'm looking for or are too far away. Essentially, I would like a decent size day cruiser that's good for a family of five. I'd like to be able to grow with the boat somewhat, but don't expect to fulfill longer/multi-day trips.

So, some info and what I'm looking for:
- I am new to sailing. I've taken the ASA 101 class, but no boat yet
- Looking for the smallest boat with the least amount of maintenance required that: 1) will comfortably fit a family of 5 with the occasional friend or two and has a head (or at least a space/privacy for a porta potti)
- Target to sail at least one day a week with up to three times a week
- Texas/Gulf Coat sailing
- Ideally an older boat to minimize depreciation rate as much as possible
- Ideally a boat that would be relatively easy to resell
- Would prefer to spend as little as possible (wouldn't we all), but targeting $20k or under. Might be able to stretch to $50k for the right boat.
- No rush to buy, but want to put my skills to use and keep them going.

My plan is to get a boat we can enjoy for a few years here in the Texas Gulf Coast area. As my skills grow, maybe charter larger boats on vacations over the years. Eventually, after several years, maybe move into a larger boat.

I can find boats that meet several of my requirements, but I'm having difficulty finding something that is relatively small and would fit us all, while having a head.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Hello, there, kosine,

It would really help to know what ages and genders the kids are, and if you plan to do overnighters. $20 k isn't a heck of a lot of money, and of course,unless you get a trailer sailer that you can keep in your yard (if you have a yard), there will be berthing fees and insurance to handle as well.

The lease expensive option is a trailer sailer, and it has the advantage of being something you can take camping to lakes and use many different places. Plan to sleep in the cockpit or at the campsite. Suddenly, you are all on the water, can find out if you really enjoy it, and the portapotty option makes more sense.

If you go for a fixed keel boat, everything will be more costly, and you'll have to address the dessicating toilet vs. holding tank issue.

Ann

[kosine]

Thanks Ann! Two girls and one boy, ages 16, 13, and 8. To your point on cost and the more I look, I'm resigning to the fact that I'll probably need to increase my budget to find something that will fit my needs. I've been looking more and more at boats in the $50k and less range.

[markwesti]

My friend has a Catalina 320 94' he and his family love it .
1995 Catalina 320 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, kosine.

[bvisailing32]

It seems that you are planning on just day sailing, but that will get old after a while and you will be sailing to other ports for weekends or longer good times.

Catalinas have a wide beam and would be priced right and more comfortable down below with room in the cockpit for the helmsman and family. 32 to 38 ft at minimum for a family of 5.

As usual, before the intrepid new to sailing person lays out the cash for a boat, if possible, do check out the different makes and lengths of vessels in a sailing club, or for sale. Caution: Might not be good idea,, to just look at a photo in a magazine and plunk down many bags of shells.

Also, once the selection is made, go our for a long a sea trial, and I mean sail the boat, reef down, check out all running and standing rigging, and inspect and operate all systems. If it looks good, and you wish to purchase, have the boat surveyed by a professional.

Check out the berthing areas, length, width , heights, and how many cabins. Also over head clearance in the cabin. If you and your family are not comfortable, they will not want to go sailing with you.

Five of you, we would suggest two marine heads, especially with three females, wife and two daughters. Not always possible depending on the
manufacturer, but you will learn why we suggest that.

Also , you need stowage space for your gear and the boats inventory as well.

Also, you need to take into account sea worthiness of the vessel itself, and your responsibility for the safety of you and your entire family.

Usually cheap boats are only cheap in the purchase price, as you will be spending thousands to fix this or that, or replace systems, sails and gear.

the info here, is only a small part of finding the correct vessel for you and your family

Honestly, if at all possible, join a sailing club, and use their boats and
take your family out sailing for a few weekends, and see if they respond positively or hate it. Trust me, not everyone loves sailing. Real sailing, not just motoring . We would train the family so that they would be helpful crew and participate in the sailing adventure.

Most sailing clubs have different boats in length and manufacturer . There will be vessels that all of you will like and many that they will not. Sail them and learn what feels right for you all.

For us, Buying a family boat, or any boat, would be taken very seriously. The short, and yep the are short, tips mentioned above is not to deter anyone from owning a boat and sailing with their families, but to help with the reality of making a purchase, and making a correct and informed decision.

For us, just Erica and I, currently we sail a 34 ft, Ericson/ Olsen ( mainland calif coastal ), and on our international sailing, a Jenneau 36i. If we were sailing for two weeks, and had another couple on board , we would go up to a 40 footer plus ( bare boat international ).

That is presently. In the long years that I have been sailing, we skippered vessels from 25 on up to 65 ft LOA, and would pack the friends on. Day sails would handle more people than overnights. Now, it is just Erica and I, not much day sailing anymore, just longer passages and extended durations .


Again, these are our own personal observations and choices, not necessarily those of others.

[dakno]

Sounds like you would be looking at 32-37 foot production boat from 1985 to 1995. Don't get stuck on brand names as with these boats condition is everything. Looked for a well cared for and maintained boat that everything is in working order. Stay away from fixer-uppers because by the time you update/correct any defects you will be worn out and broke plus you would have spent more than what a well kept version would have costed. Tons of nice boats in Kemah area.

[Kiwi.]

We just spent a few nights at Douro Yachts and Chalets on the Douro River in Portugal. Jose, the owner, has a number of MacGregor 26s for charter. I’d forgotten how much I liked these great trailable motor-sailing yachts. As an introduction to boating for the whole family they would be hard to beat. For $50k you should be able to buy a less than ten year old one on a trailer and have enough left over to buy a five seater Ute to tow it.

[TrentePieds]

Hello Kosine :-)

You state your desiderata most sensibly, and were I in your shoes, mine would be quite similar. So on the basis on having been around boats most of my life I make bold to say this:

You, like most of us, will find that your greatest difficulty will be resolving the conflict between needs and wants. Be clear-eyed about what you NEED. At your stage of development as a sailor your wants must take second place. Letting them take second place is a NEED you must satisfy :-)!

• Looking for the smallest boat with the least amount of maintenance required that: 1) will comfortably fit a family of 5 with the occasional friend or two and has a head (or at least a space/privacy for a porta potti)

• Target to sail at least one day a week with up to three times a week

This implies day-sailing, returning to home berth at night. With no requirement for sleeping aboard, a 27-footer will do the job handsomely. Even with the occasional “sleep over” most 27-footers will do it, since they typically have a “V”-berth for two up forrard, a “quarter-berth” sticking in under a cockpit seat and accessible from the cabin, and a “convertible dinette” (sleeping two) in the main cabin. There are only so many ways your can arrange a 27 footer's interior, so they are all much of a muchness. They will all fill this criterion. A consideration you should bear in mind is that if you have a LARGE crew for the boat's size ,you are better off with a tiller-steered boat than with a wheel steered boat because the binnacle and wheel take up space for two people in the cockpit. Wheels are only justified in boats so large that the physical effort required to steer them requires the mechanical advantage afforded by a wheel.

Texas/Gulf Coat sailing

Just where you sail is of no great consequence at his stage of your development as a sailor. As long as you stay where the water is deeper than six feet at low tide, you'll be fine in any 27 footer. Different waters require different skippering skills, but you aren't quite there yet :-) Just learn the basics close to home, wherever that may be.



Ideally an older boat to minimize depreciation rate as much as possible


Bang on!! No man should invest more money in a boat than he can afford to walk away from with a smile on his face! 20K is sensible enuff, but don't forget that that is only the ADMISSION FEE. Once a boat is yours, budget at LEAST 7K PER YEAR – for the rest of its life – for the KEEPING of it! And then, at the end of the boat's life, or when it has served its purpose, budget 10K to DISPOSE of it! But for you budget, you can get a forty year old Cat27 in ADEQUATE condition. And a boat in adequate condition is probably what you need at this time. The "goldplater" can come later. Particularly if you haven't blown you budget on a boat that "falls between chairs" by pretending to be more than it really is.

Ideally a boat that would be relatively easy to resell

NO boat is “easy” to resell, though something like a Catalina 27 is easier than many because it is a BEGINNER's boat, it is dirt cheap and there is a wannabe sailor born every minute. There are three possibilities: 1) You sell to another beginner for basically what you paid for the boat, and eat the accrued maintenance and moorage expenses. 2) You give the boat away, gratis, to a benevolent association against a receipt for income tax purposes. 3) You swallow hard, strip the boat of what is salable on e-bay, take the chain-saw to the hull and bury the remains in a landfill forking over the burial fee!

• Would prefer to spend as little as possible (wouldn't we all), but targeting $20k or under. Might be able to stretch to $50k for the right boat.

• No rush to buy, but want to put my skills to use and keep them going.
  
  My plan is to get a boat we can enjoy for a few years here in the Texas Gulf Coast area. As my skills grow, maybe charter larger boats on vacations over the years. Eventually, after several years, maybe move into a larger boat.

20K is fine. That is pin-money. 50K will drop you between chairs. Save that for when you've actually become a sailor and know for a certainty that that is what you want to be and, most importantly, when you've learned through experience just exactly WHAT you require a boat to do for you and therefore how it has to be equipped. For most beginners the “right” boat is the SIMPLEST boat they can find.

I can find boats that meet several of my requirements, but I'm having difficulty finding something that is relatively small and would fit us all, while having a head.

I have yet to meet a 27-footer that didn't have an enclosed head. So that is a trivial criterion. What is NOT trivial is that some, though not all, 27-footers have inboard engines. Lift your eyes from the head – focus on the engine. If a prospect boat has an inboard engine, make your decision based on the condition of the engine. The rest of the boat is of secondary importance unless it's so bad that you can't be bothered to proceed anyway. Remember that to re-power a 27-footer with an inboard diesel will set you back 15 grand unless you can do the work yourself. If so, the cost is only 10K :-). If the boat is motivated by an outboard, then focus on the boat itself. A dying outboard can go for scrap and be replaced for, say, 3 grand. And that you CAN do yourself :-)


As for the canvas: You are a beginner. You don't NEED the finest and the dearest suit of sails money can buy. What comes with the boat will no doubt hold you until you find something better second hand. There are so many Cat 27s in the world that hand-me-down canvas is not hard to find. If you get excited about it, you can even make your own – as I have done.


All the best


TP

[alansmith]

TP, excellent reply for the newbie. Well thought out, very logical, and practical.
I hope the family listens to it...because it is exactly the way it is.

To the new skipper. I can only add one thing....potties....when someone has to do #2 in a porta-potti....um...uh....ah....if you have never experienced cleaning that out at a latter date/day....you will swear off the porta-potti for life. If you think one of your tribe will do it for you.....ha ha ha....your wife....?"get real"....

Luckily there are composting toilets. They ain't cheap. But I can't stand holding tanks either.

Sir, the other thing is kids. I don't know the dynamics of your family. So, don't be offended. It might be a gross generalization...or miss generalization. But the older ones might be bored to tears. Or not....You also have to be very careful about sailing conditions. I know of many family members who give up sailing very quickly because they got deathly seasick due to roughish conditions that they were caught out in or poor planning on the skippers part. It can be the death knell for sailing family members. You have the bigger picture in mind of moving towards bigger boats and more challenging places to visit. Keep in mind the need to grow their love of sailing. A boat has three axis as it moves through the water. Yaw, pitch, and roll. Different wave heights, wind speeds, mixed wave trains, and you can get even hardy sea men and women chumming overboard. One of my bay area sailor friends told me how he pushed his wife too hard on a trimaran when conditions were brutish now refuses to sail with him. He lamented to me that he wishes he hadn't spoiled it for her.

I recommend trailerable boats because they are cheaper to maintain. You can take them to distant sailing areas is a big plus. I recommend you look at the Ian Farrier F27. They can be had for 30-40 k. They are fun to sail, trailerable, fast, and they have a much easier movement in the water. They are shallow draft so easy to get on and off a trailer. They have plenty of room to sleep your crew and you don't need a huge truck to move them.
Wish you best of luck no matter what....

[jeepbluetj]

'round here, Catalina 27's are almost free. It's a great first boat. Little small for 5.

Then there's the Catalina 30. You can find these all day long in the $10K-$20K range. Plenty big for 5 to overnight on, more for daysails. (I've had 10 on mine for a short time once)

If I lived in the southeast US, I'd seriously think about a Macgregor 26x or 26m. 60mph to the next cruising ground would make up a lot for the compromises designed into the boat. Bit small for 5.


Condition dictates how much money you'll throw into the hole in the water.

[Jim Cate]

For the stipulated five plus occasional guests, IMO 27 feet is too small for comfort or even safety. Overcrowding in the cockpit leads to many sketchy situations with MOB potential lurking.

The ubiquitous Catalina 30 would be a much better choice than just about any 27 footer known to man (or at least to me! Their genuine market approval and huge populations means that the chance of easy turnover is gonna be better than most, and there are always some for sale to choose from.

Lots of other 30 - 32 foot boats around that would work, but few with the near universal appeal of the Cat... at least in that price range.

Jim

[hamburking]

You asked a good question.
And I have a good answer.

C&C29mk1.

A very well built, older boat. Excellent sailing characteristics, and spacious below. In addition to a real head with holding tank, as you requested, is has 5 bunks...one for each of you. Two go in the vee (I suggest the smallest kids). There are opposing settees in the main cabin which make excellent bunks. And a big quarter berth, big enough for 2 more (or one person and some gear storage).

They usually sell for $10-20 thousand depending on condition. If you are lucky, you'll find one with shoal draft and a yanmar diesel. Although most were made in Ontario, some where made at the Rhode Island plant. The stock engine is the tried and true Atomic 4, but some were yanmar equipped, and many have been repowered by now.

They are a great old boat, very capable. Room for your whole family. And well within your budget.

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-sailboat/cit...ationFlag=true

C&C 29 boats for sale - YachtWorld

https://www.boatdealers.ca/boats-for...eville-ontario

And please don't get confused. The 29mk2 is a much smaller boat. The 30, although also a great sailing boat, has a very different layout below, not suitable for you.

When my kids were little, my family of 4 fit quite nicely on a C&C25 for many seasons, many long trips. But when the kids got bigger, we needed more space too. My suggestion to you is...don't wait...your kids are getting bigger. Soon they won't be interested in sailing with you, as their interests develop and diverge from yours. So get a boat, and get your family out there. You will have adventures, make memories, and have fun together. FWIW, its not the size of the boat that matters, but the magic in it.

[kosine]

Wow. Thanks all for the great and insightful input! I'm glad I posted.

You're all spot on and very helpful. Good points on possible boats, including size and features. Also, realize that the older kids might be bored to death and I'm prepared to deal with it, and that the rest of the family might not enjoy it as much, so I do plan to get them out on the water before buying something.

I have considered getting something much smaller just to sail on my own, but I'd like to expose the broader family to it and when we "do something" we usually all go along for the ride ... no pun intended. Also good point that day sailing might get old quickly. We do a lot of camping/RV'ing and I like the idea of exploring via sea.

Again, thank you all! Please keep any suggestions coming

[Kiwi.]

Originally Posted by kosine

Also, realize that the older kids might be bored to death.......

I have considered getting something much smaller just to sail on my own..

That's one of the reasons I suggested the Macgregor 26, my daughter loves sailing but my son loves wake boarding. We've done both on a Macgregor. They are now grown and doing their own thing so we like having the Bavaria for just my wife and I, but with room for all the kids and grand-kids on a weekend sail.